Hydrogen Fuel Cell

Discussion in 'The Projects Forum' started by weirdbeard, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. weirdbeard

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jun 25, 2013
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    I recently moved and I'm unshelving a project I started on in '06.

    I need to pulse 12VDC current in the (high) MHz range but I don't have the knowledge to build the circuit.

    I have worked on simple electronics up to and including 555 timers and RaspberryPi GPIO, I simply don't have the electronics knowledge to know where to start as far as the components are concerned. I've been told I can do this with NAND gates, PWMs and Mosfets, however I would like the best / least complex method for accomplishing the pulse.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  2. Dodgydave

    Distinguished Member

    Jun 22, 2012
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    What frequency range do you need, as a PIC or micro would be accurate?
     
  3. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    As odd as it sounds, water is an ash - the product of burning hydrogen in the presence of oxygen.

    Forget about trying to "split" the hydrogen from the oxygen at resonant frequency, as that's in the terahertz range.
     
  4. BillO

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2008
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    Not exactly true, just as carbon dioxide is not and ash. Ash is just that product of the combustion of a impure substance that did not leave as a gas. In 'burning' hydrogen in the presence of oxygen, the result will be a gas (steam) which will need to be cooled and condensed before it's water.

    But I digress...

    If the intent of the OPs project is to separate hydrogen from water to re-combine it with oxygen into water again in a fuel cell, then he should know that thermodynamics tells us that this would be a fruitless effort with respect to energy balance. It will cost more energy to produce the hydrogen than he will be able to get out of the fuel cell.

    If this is indeed the case, then this thread should be closed as an infraction of the forum rules. So I think we need to hear from the OP on this as we should not waste our time in discussing over-unity, nut-bag projects.

    :confused::mad::p
     
  5. wayneh

    Expert

    Sep 9, 2010
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    That's true, but it's still a valid technology for converting one form of energy (solar, for instance) into a storable and portable fuel (hydrogen). The end-to-end losses are big but we don't dismiss batteries because of their losses.
     
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  6. LDC3

    Active Member

    Apr 27, 2013
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    The OP never said that he wanted to create hydrogen so that he can create more hydrogen from his fuel cell. So far, what he did say does not lead to the conclusion that he is trying to violate the laws of thermodynamics.
     
  7. BillO

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2008
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    Also true, and that's why I suggested we hear from the OP. His local hydrogen station might have closed down and he just needs a supply for the used space shuttle he picked up cheap. I mean, if you've got one of thoes, efficiency be dammed, you've just gotta see those control panels light up!
     
  8. BillO

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2008
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    That also is true. I'll direct you to the following opening:
    and...

     
  9. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    Pulsing DC current is kind of an oxymoron like "Jumbo Shrip" and "Military Intelligence".

    "The high MHz. range" to me, means just under 1 GHz. You will have a very difficult time breadboarding circuits in this range. The design tools and test equipment will cost as much as a small house. It is quite beyond the capabilities of the average hobbyist. Sorry to throw cold water on your project, but it is unlikely to be either practical or achievable with modest means.
     
  10. weirdbeard

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jun 25, 2013
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    Thanks for the reply, Bill.

    I am not attempting to violate the laws of thermodynamics, merely striving for a more efficient method of electrolysis of water.
     
  11. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    So what do your calculations show as the improvement from using a pulsed current source running in the high MHz. range?
     
  12. wayneh

    Expert

    Sep 9, 2010
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    He may be looking at articles like this one. Or this one. There are many others. Another.

    I'm not saying I believe all of it, just that there is a lot of chatter out there.
     
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  13. BillO

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2008
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    Good then.

    Just so you are aware, there is absolutely no theory or verifiable experiment that demonstrates that any frequency of the electrolyzing current can be used to increase the efficiency of the electrolysis of water.

    There are ways to increase efficiency, but they all utilize a DC electrolyzing current. Using an electrolyte or an electrocatalyst of some kind is required to speed up the process. It helps to understand a bit of physics behind what is happening and why pure water is difficult to electrolyze and how an electrolyte or catalyst will help. Knowing this, you will see why using pulses, or high frequency electrolyzing currents will get you nowhere. It may be better, and quicker, for you to actually study a bit of the physics than to try to experiment with the numerous unsubstantiated claims that you may find on the internet.

    Using NaCl (table salt) as an electrolyte is extremely effective at speeding things up, but you have to deal with the elimination of the very poisonous chlorine gas produced.
     
  14. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    I was kinda asking the OP to stand and deliver, just to see if he could come up with anything at all.
     
  15. weirdbeard

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jun 25, 2013
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    Please understand that I'm no spring chicken when it comes to the physics of electrolysis; and this isn't something I just "found on the internet." I am attempting to test my own personal theory, and debating about how viable it may or may not be is a waste of everyone's time. I did not register on this board to have a Red/Blue discussion about how all hydrogen fuel cell experiments are quackery.

    Perhaps someone could respond to my initial post with some helpful information, instead of condescension?
     
  16. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    I did respond to your original post in a straightforward and non judgmental fashion indicating that the language you used was so imprecise that it was impossible to tell just exactly what you are looking for. I'm not even sure if you know precisely what to ask for.

    In particular I would like to know the basis for your request for an AC waveform in the high MHz. range. I can tell you it will have a lower average or RMS voltage and current than a straight DC source. I can also tell you that it will radiate a fair percentage of the power in to no effect, and I can tell you that it will have no discernible effect on the water molecules.

    Do you know something that I don't know about Physics and Chemistry?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  17. weirdbeard

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jun 25, 2013
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    I intentionally did not answer, as it seems already that the atmosphere of this board is not very fostering of anything that is anywhere near borderline theoretical. Being told "this won't work, don't even bother" is not helpful to me. There is significant evidence that pulsed DC does in fact make electrolysis more effiecient, and that is my only goal.

    I merely wanted to be pointed in the right direction as far as the components required to pulse 12VDC current at ~50MHz at around 250 watts.
     
  18. wayneh

    Expert

    Sep 9, 2010
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    You're new here, but please understand that maybe 95% of the time the word "hydrogen" appears in this forum, it is in regard to over-unity schemes. Sometimes that fact is intentionally obscured for as long as possible, and we've all been burned wasting time on some of these.

    You'll get better feedback if you can be more specific as to how much current you want at what voltage and frequency, wave shape, duty cycle and so on. Subjective terms like "high" have no meaning.

    Gaaa!!! You beat me to it.
     
  19. weirdbeard

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jun 25, 2013
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    Thank you, I hadn't considered that about the hydrogen postings on this board. I will admit that I am a bit of a neophyte when it comes to electronics, hence the reason for the post in the first place.

    This project has been shelved for quite a while, so I don't mean to be vague.
     
  20. wayneh

    Expert

    Sep 9, 2010
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    If I understand the papers, you want this to be a nearly square wave, which means you really need components capable of ~500MHz, or else the edges won't square off.
     
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