More grown up countries?

Sound like uncivilized countries to me.

Clothing and modesty have been signs of status, the more clothes and the finer the materials, the more wealthy and 'civilised' you were.

Today, people seem to be fine with showing more and more flesh - a sign we are falling backwards?

I haven't ever gone out in public without a shirt on - that is something oiks do.

 

Well coming from Greece you would probably know in some of the ancient Greek cultures (possibly the most advanced civilisation of the time) that is was common for women to show their breasts, they were prized and rich women especially would show their breasts in their best social event clothing. The island of Minoa(?) now thought to be the real location of Atlantis, has wall murals shwoing men and women in their best high social clothing, the women with bare and very "presented" breasts.

And also consider the Sistine Chapel ceiling painted by Michelangelo between 1508 and 1512. As fine example.

 

Art is different from reality.

 

Not really. Sexuality has been a taboo subject since the eve of Christianity.

But my god the parties they had in rome before JC! Orgy bath houses, you could have numerous wives and concubines, condoms and aids hadn't been invented yet! Oh the good old days. Tell em how it was bill!

 

Bill's secret is out.

 

Yep, living in Britain for several years when I was a kid marked me for life. Lakenheath Air Force Base. It was interesting.

 

I'm not too far from Lakenheath.

Was that when they had the b47's or b50's?

I was going to say b29's, but thought - no.

 

My Dad was tactical, not strategic. During the Cuban missile crises they did load nukes on jets like the F100 though. I suspect it was pretty scary for the airmen.

 

I live among the big pathfinder airfields, there was a point when the vulcan and lightning squadrons did drills two or three times a day with live nukes.

JFK did an excellent job during the crisis.

 

Well coming from Greece you would probably know in some of the ancient Greek cultures (possibly the most advanced civilisation of the time) that is was common for women to show their breasts, they were prized and rich women especially would show their breasts in their best social event clothing. The island of Minoa(?) now thought to be the real location of Atlantis, has wall murals shwoing men and women in their best high social clothing, the women with bare and very "presented" breasts.

America seems to be going backwards. I see Hollywood movies from the 70's and 80's with topless women, everything from comedies to actions films etc. These days apart from very rare instances you never see a breast or a nipple, it's like some Victorian age BS where the love scenes in movies are all "from the shoulders up". A return to Victorian style BS? It's a joke.

In Australia if there's boobs in a movie nobody really cares, same as on a beach. The idea that a woman sunbathing on an American beach could actually be arrested and dragged off to a cell for taking her bikini top off just sounds totally bizarre to people from more grown up countries.

You got your facts a bit messed up, but you are not too far off.

First off, the murals you talk about do in fact belong to the Minoan civilization, which bloomed in the island of Crete but during the 2000-1450BC.
It was indeed one of the greatest Mediterranean civilizations of the era, at the time when in inland Greece tribes where starting to only settle.
The topless women in the murals depict priestesses and athletes during celebrations. I can't imagine how it can be convenient in the everyday life when your privates dangle around.
But then the volcano eruption of Thera occurred and away with them we did.
Note that the Cretan culture was a matriarch one.

On the other hand, the famous Athenian civilization reached its peak at the 5th century BC.
Male nudity was "trendy" at the time. Not that there aren't female ones too. In general, the human body and mind (not soul) was the center of the world conception.

On the roman orgies, I don't have so much info. I think it was only an emperor and high officers privilege.

As for the "cultural progress vs nudity" bar, I didn't say that it exists. I only said that Christianity banned the nude regardless of the progress factor.

 

You're a clever chap, Georacer.

 

Clever isn't the same as educated and well read, but I think you 're complimenting me for the right trait. Thanks!

 

...
First off, the murals you talk about do in fact belong to the Minoan civilization, which bloomed in the island of Crete but during the 2000-1450BC....

Thanks for the info Georacer. The TV documentary I saw claimed the murals were of powerful women of status, no mention was made of any specific job specialty. I believe their point was that this was how the upper class dressed.

...More grown up countries?

Sound like uncivilized countries to me.

Clothing and modesty have been signs of status, the more clothes and the finer the materials, the more wealthy and 'civilised' you were.
...

There's some truth in that, but that's not my point. When societies were much less "civilised" you could be jailed or inquisitored/tortured etc if you dared to go against the enforced dress code.

Then we go slightly more civilised and started to respect people's rights somewhat, but even in the Victorian age you could be badly persecuted for showing a shoulder or calf muscle.

Then we got even more civilised towards the late 60's and 70's where people realised they could finally wear what they wanted without being overly persecuted. An age of liberation, no longer forced to wear grey suits and hats 24 hours a day.

Over the last couple of decades there has been a slide in liberation and personal rights etc (all cornerstones of being "civilised") and we are heading in a most worrying fashion towards oppression again.

There's words you can't say or you get arrested, can't smoke in places or you get arrested, can't drink in places or you get arrested, can't sunbake topless or you get arrested, the western world is becoming like Nazi Germany. Now you can claim that the Nazi oppressed masses were more "civilised" than topless hippies circa 1969 but I'm just not sure that is right...

 

Don't get me started on hippies...

What I worry about is the rallies I see American politicians hold in their elections - real similarities can be drawn between these and Nazi rallies.

 

Not really, but you have to remember that Nazi Germany started off as a Democracy.

Heinlein had a pretty good book based on something similar, "Revolt in 2100".

 

But when you see people concerned more with the canditate rather than the actual policies, things are going wrong.

Speaches about, how great person X is, and how bad person Y is, and how person X is so good with his kids and how person Y has a strange religion, etc, etc - more and more seems to be forgetting about the actual politics. Rather them as people.

Then there are the massive glitzy rallies, with huge banners and chanting. I've even seen people taking their picture against cardboard cutouts of the leaders. This isn't about politics, this is trying to glamourise the candidate and the style of the party, rather than concentrating on what matters - the policies.

I'm not saying conferences have to be boring in a little town hall. But when pictures are spread around the world of an election becoming a glamour competition...

I raise an eyebrow.

 

I've seen a lot of elections, I suspect our 4 year craziness does look strange from the outside. It always has.

Me, I focus on the issues and vote, and ignore the rest. Most Americans do the same, for some it is a hobby and an avocation.

 

I am starting to worry that with the amount of lobbying from all sides, it really does not matter what person X vs. person Y tells the voters as they will never know who is pushing his/her buttons. So, might as well pick the best looking and the one who is good with kids.

 

I only glanced over this thread briefly and I'm struck by something that no one here seems to understand...

The Internet is not a private place! It is by it's essential nature public and open at nearly every point, and outside of some serious VPN setups with decent encryption everything you type is as if you were shouting it from the top of the nearest town building with a crowd around. SSL isn't bad, but certificate's can (and have been) compromised.

People seem to think that because they are in the perceived comfort and privacy of their own home or work that that security also extends to the Internet when we use it from those perceived safe places which is about as irrational as you can get!

To me it's pretty simple... The only people that complain about Internet 'privacy' are people that have something that they want to hide.

How often do you see someone walking around in person in public wearing a black trench-coat hood and swings a large club over their head screaming "stop looking at me!" the comparison is funny but starkly relevant.

 

this thread was about google? I thought it was about electing naked presidents...

regarding nakedness and superficiality - what I always found funny is this, a long time ago tan was bad, because it signified that you were of the working class spending time outdoors in the sun. Now tan considered fashionable because it means that you have money to spend on the tanning bed or to go south for the winter. So really, it is always about the money and status.

I think the real question is this: if I choose to be naked in my home and not draw the blinds closed, someone takes a picture and posts it on the internet, who is at fault?