HH0 generator project

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by galveston, Jun 9, 2009.

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  1. galveston

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jun 3, 2009
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    I am working on a HHO generator, and since I am a dummy, I have a lot of questions. I THINK I have gotten most of the design in my head now so I'll run it past you good people and ask you what you think, and at the end I have another question.

    I have built an electrode using (11) 18 ga 304 SS plates spaced .010 apart. When I hooked it to a 12V car battery straight, it looks like it draws about 80A in tap water. The water fairly boils. Of course, this is too hot, and the boiling may be exactly that, from heat.

    I plan to drive the electrode with a pulse generator and use IRF 540 which I understand delivers 10A, that would be @ 12V making it 120W of power. I suspect that it is the wattage that counts, however it is delivered.

    If possible, I would like to be able to use the full 960W potential of the electrode, so I ask you the following questions:

    1. Could I drive as many as 8 FET's (10A) in paralell from one pulse generator? If their output was commonly connected to the electrode, would that give me the 960W?

    2. Since the electrode would really heat, could I hook a step-up coil to each FET output and boost the voltage to 196V and have only 10A in the electrode? (Would a flyback converter be better here?)

    3. And finally, (for now), can anyone give me detailed instructions for winding such a coil?

    Any and all advice greatly appreciated.
     
  2. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
    15,815
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    Your thread got moved to the Off Topic section, as HHO devices/claims all turn out to be much less than they purport to be. If you are following instructions from an internet site that claims free energy from water, you are the victim of a scam. The best advice is to learn more science so you won't be taken in by scammer in the future.

    From your desire to step up the applied voltage, you must be reading some stuff based (loosely) on Stanley Meyer's claims. His original patent that deals with overunity electrolysis is gibberish as far as the circuitry goes, but there is one solid claim made. He says very clearly that his working voltage is 26, and that his voltage intensifier circuit (VIC) steps the voltage up by a factor of 5. That is 130 volts. We won't try to figure out why he got 26 volts to start with.

    A bit of investigation will find the conditions for electrolysis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

    Notice the very low voltage necessary. Notice that the rate of electrolysis is directly related to the applied current.

    The links below are a representative but not exhaustive list of the discussions we have had to recent date about electrolysis for use in increasing mileage. While the list is not complete, I would think that the subject has been dealt with to exhaustion. This subject is not likely to open up again until someone has some concrete results to show.

    Please take the time to read through these threads. You will have a much better idea of what is likely/possible to do. If our various responses seem discouraging, consider that we do have a great deal of experience in the area of electronics. We have a pretty good idea of what is possible. The same may be said for the impossible.

    Please note that we are willing to help build and refine circuits for such purpose, while remaining skeptical about the ultimate outcome. We are here to help spread knowledge around, not to protect against progress that will cost oil interests money. We have not been coopted by some alphabetical government agency.

    Please remember that any device that promises an output greater than the input is quite extraordinary. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. To date, we have claims, but not one bit of proof. We will not function as a sounding board for you to advance your beliefs.

    We are aware that videos claiming to demonstrate various "free energy" or "over unity" devices exist in profusion. Take the time to watch a movie such as "Jurrasic Park" or one of the "Matrix" series. Think of how nicely presented and realistic the effects were in the movies. Imagine how hard it is to produce a video that can "show" literally anything happening. That does not constitute proof of anything at all.

    Unless you have some actual results to share, please don't expect us to waste further time with this subject.

    Links to threads:

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14396

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14535

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14064

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=11879

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=13206

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=15539

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14794

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14933

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=13207

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=15043

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=15713

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=15859

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=12711

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=16792

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=12643


    Some of the more recent threads have been most illuminating:

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=18833

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=17319

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=9812

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=18547

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=19717

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=19859
     
  3. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
    5,072
    6
    No. The volts and amps are just as important. Get one or the other too high and the magic smoke comes pouring out. Get the wattage too high (and you've got it too high unless you have a heck of a good heatsink) and the same smoke comes out.

    Also, the voltage drop across the plates of your cell are fixed. Check the link provided by Beenthere.

    Why do you believe you have such a high power rating on your plates?

    Yes.
    Only until your FETs blow up. Which they will. That 130 Watts per FET is only attainable if you can keep the junction temperature at 25°C. Can you?

    No. Step-up transformers work with AC, not with DC. Besides, you want less voltage, not more. See the link provided by Beenthere.
     
  4. samuraimarc

    Active Member

    Mar 28, 2009
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  5. S_lannan

    Active Member

    Jun 20, 2007
    247
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    I must admit reading about these hydrogen mad scientists has been very amusing. I knew one guy at my tafe who whos mind was altered by these guys.

    He was directly rectifying the mains and sticking electrodes into buckets of water. I told him to do himself a favour and stop before he blows himself up.
     
  6. electronictech

    Active Member

    Apr 1, 2009
    35
    0
    The majority of the above threads are very pessimistic, thus it is clear they belong to the general public who keep incredulity perpetuated.

    Don't be afraid to experiment with water.....you should look at your water cells as capacitors. Create a series resonant circuit using inductors with your water cells. Drive them with a low power function generator, sweep the frequency range and measure the system with an oscilloscope. You will find that the system has a fundamental resonant frequency along with harmonic frequencies (but usually the fundamental works the best). This behavior is true for most LC circuits.

    The water cell circuit isn't much different than that of a lead acid battery desulfator circuit that is also a battery charger. That is, the desulfator circuit is a wave superimposed upon the charging DC (looks like a wave offset(+) by the charging voltage). You have the primary charging DC to act as the current source for charging(current limited to 2A), and the wave that rides on top of it is for desulfation, the high frequency (in my case was around 1MHz) wave causes the sulfate deposits to vibrate loose from the plates and go back into solution(lead sulfate/water >> lead/H2SO4). I had to use a signal generator and oscilloscope to find the resonant frequency, but you'll know you've found it when your terminal wave voltage is low(5V) but the wave voltage across the battery is high (25V)....I've been able to recover heavily sulfated 220AHr 6V deep cycle batteries that go in golf carts, takes about 4 days of trickle desulfation charge, but its much cheaper than $150 per replacement battery.

    In case of your water cell research, may I suggest you take a low power resonant approach instead of brute force with high power.........you may find/discover something new.

    Be safe and have fun!
     
  7. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
    15,815
    282
    Possibly you could expand a bit on -
    On the one hand we have apples (for instance, electrolysis cells), and on the other, oranges (say, lead acid batteries).

    It would be fascinating to have an explanation of how a process that charges a battery by forcing a chemical reaction to reverse itself can be related to a process that disrupts the chemical bond between hydrogen and oxygen.

    The statement -
    - does not seem to have anything to do with electrolysis. Can you shed some light on its relevance?

    I suspect that -
    - it will be the same old hooey. Resorting to flim-flam - trying to confuse the issue with completely off-topic subjects and imaginary relationships is a favorite scammer's technique.
     
  8. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
    5,072
    6
    Why would I want to look at a resistor as a capacitor?
    This would only be possible if the water were a capacitor instead of a resistor.
     
  9. S_lannan

    Active Member

    Jun 20, 2007
    247
    2
    maybe electronictech has got what it takes to be the next stan meyer ;)
     
  10. jpanhalt

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jan 18, 2008
    5,699
    907
    You seem to be claiming that lead sulfate (i.e., Pb(SO4)n) plus water gives lead plus H2S04?

    If so, what happens to the oxygen atoms?

    If the reaction that you claim happens after the lead sulfate vibrates loose from the plates, how does the lead that is formed find its way back to the plates?

    John
     
  11. Mike Mandaville

    Active Member

    May 27, 2009
    81
    1
    Here is my own solution to the rising price of gasoline:

    [​IMG]
     
  12. HarveyH42

    Active Member

    Jul 22, 2007
    425
    5
    Desulfator recovers a semi dead battery by cleaning the sulfate crystals off the lead plates, increasing the surface area, and voltage. How much actually goes back into solution, is a matter for the marketing department. I suspect the bulk of it is sludge deposited on the bottom of the battery. It won't fully recover a weak battery, just buy you a few more months of service. There is some truth in this, and it does work. But there are also a lot of wild claims about it, and outright scams. Fits well with the discussion on HHO. :) The electrolysis produces the gas, its just how much, how fast, and energy required that is questionable...
     
  13. Quarktoo

    New Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    4
    0
    Meyer used an accelerator coil and that is what the VIC is / does. It is a longitudinal wave generator driven by a transverse wave generator.

    As far as being a scammer that is false. The law of force has three exceptions, one of them is if the mass is moving at or near quantum speeds.

    This is the reason that Meyer called it "hydrogen fracturing" and Dr. Puharich called it "hydrogen shattering."

    All these people that claim you can't beat Faraday's law are clueless to the fact that they did not use DC electrolysis, they used an accelerator.

    "Nobody thought of using an accelerator before" - Stan Meyer at one of his lectures.

    I have some photos of circuits etc. that have never been released and you can see exactly what Meyer was up to. Puharich was basically doing the same thing.
     
  14. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,766
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    Do you even know what a longitudinal wave generator or a transverse wave generator is? It is gobblety gook, phrases that have no meaning, but sound significant. As is the rest of the rant. Other phrases you misused, Accelerator. A ring like device designed to accelerate particles, bears no resemblance to how you used it in a sentence. Quantum speed, pure gibberish. Law of Force, I assume you're not talking Laws of Thermodynamics, which you have no acquaintance with. Again, gibberish.

    Try studying a little real theory, you might get somewhere. Electronics and physics have real words for real things. You should be able to point to them in legit sources. Making this stuff up as you go along is ludicrous.
     
  15. Mark44

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 26, 2007
    626
    1
    The law of force? Care to clue us in on what that is? I recall F = ma, which is the algebraic statement of Newton's Second Law.
     
  16. Quarktoo

    New Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    4
    0

    Why yes I do.

    It obviouly has no meaning to you but you hardly speak for the entire community.

    Accelerators come in several flavors. Ever hear of a linear accelerator?
    Actually I have a good "acquaintance" with both and if you did also you would understand three things:

    1. The law of force, as do many physical laws that do not have a C2 function, have violations.

    2. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply as it is not a closed system since water is an external fuel source.

    3. It has nothing to do with Faraday's law of electrolysis. It is a bond cleaving process not DC electrolysis.

    Does the term projection mean anything to you? Your ignorance is profound and matched only by you belligerence.

    This is an electronics forum, not a place do debate what you do not know anything about. The fact that this circuitry is placed off topic is suspicious and odd. Good thing the moderator isn't clueless (I assume) about RF and decides RF circuits are "off topic" because he doesn't like a particular radio station.

    Here is an ingenious accelerator coil based on a single coil. Notice how the pancake coil was incorporated into the same wire? US - 7253572

    The sense coil on Meyer's primary is used for level detection and comparators or OP amps are triggered based on a voltage divider network to fire the pancake coils after zero crossing has occurred. The pancake coils are arranged to fire on both the positive and negative side of 0 volts and is the reason that there are two two sets of coils for each bank in the VIC.

    There is an the shelf solution that would also work well such as a dot bar driver chip (LM3915) if a three rail sense coil is used or even an embedded solution such as found here:

    http://www.mbeckler.org/microcontrollers/led_bargraph/

    Meyer used switches tied to two 74LS150's which went to a couple of 74LS193's and from there to 74LS112 flip flop to basically produce a programmable serial pulse train. There was also a LM741 op amp on his PWM board that appeared to be used for zero crossing however I can't confirm that.

    His circuits evolved greatly as he developed the process. I have several versions of his circuits and there is a "quantum" leap between them.

    People that attack people and inventions they know nothing about with their "gibberish" should be ignored. People should ask themselves the simple questions "Do these people have a personality problem or are they just belligerent and ignorant? Do they have an agenda and or are they working for someone?" Rarely in life are things one thing or the other, usually they are one thing and the other. A highly concerted effort has been attempting to suppress water fuel for years.

    Understanding Dr. Puharich's patent will better help you understand Meyer's patent. They were doing the same basic thing. In order to slip past the national security patent review system which is designed to protect the oil industry and others, the inventors avoided using terms like accelerator, atomic, nuclear, etc.

    You will never violate Faraday's law of electrolysis using DC or pulsed DC or even high voltage pulsed DC until you accelerate the pulse to produce electron cascade. Hence the term "hydrogen fracturing process."
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  17. Quarktoo

    New Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    4
    0
    You are correct Mark, F-MA. It is useful to describe a falling apple or to design the bumper of a car - low speed events.

    One of the big problems that science faces is it has built a house of cards by using a peer review system (sometimes referred to as steer review because of the corruption of science) based in the dependence of physical laws of past science or corporate and government interests.

    Take for example Planks constant. We now know that light slows down considerably as it passes near a charged quadrupole such as our Sun and so there is a violation to Planks constant. The heavens are filled with charged quadrupoles.

    Many of these exceptions are kept quiet for reasons such as these:

    1. The purpose of an education is not to educate you, it is to make you a good corporate tool. Good corporate tools don't produce devices that convert mass into the atomic energy contained within the mass in order to produce "economic free energy devices".

    2. If people ever figured out that much of what they have been taught is flawed, they might shrug off the mind control and start asking themselves questions rather than regurgitating what was shoved into their ear by institutions funded by people with an agenda.

    For example - Knowing that light slows down as it passes a charged quadrupole means the universe is not as old as claimed, not as large as claimed and a house of cards surrounding big bang comes crashing down from yet another flaw. Think of the paperwork that would be involved. :)

    The last time that happened, they had to come up with the BS that the laws of physics didn't apply for the first three seconds. "Oh the humanuity.."

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

    There are many such exceptions to physical laws and point particle physics taught today.

    One of the things they are trying to suppress is cavitation and how it converts mass into the atomic energy contained within the mass via electron clustering and subsequent electron cascade as a result of a amplification of speed as the electron clusters repel. Ties right into that law of force violation. One of the unreleased Meyer drawings shows a permanent magnet being used. Hum...

    One of the very first particle accelerators built by Rolf Wideroe in 1928 generated its high voltage in a Tesla coil.

    A fairly standard pulse flyback transformer drives a bank of coils that slightly resemble a Tesla coil with it's pancake coils. A good reading of the Puharich patent better explains the process at a particle level.

    Photos of Meyers circuits and magnetics are floating around the web but are not being posted publicly due to the suppression tactics being employed, wittingly or not, by some entities and web sites.

    Your best bet is to find a web site with a moderator that owns his or her own thoughts and does not have an agenda - good luck with that one. There is nothing stopping you from starting your own and using the ban button when these people expose themselves for who and what they are.

    To suggest Stan Meyer, Dr. Puharich, Dr. Herman Anderson and others were con artists borders on insanity. Herman Anderson's car was registered with the state, powered by deuterium he processed himself and he was allowed to do so because he was a nuclear physicist. Here is a abstract of the car. http://www.rexresearch.com/andersnh/andersnh.htm

    Last I heard, Herman's car was at a university and they were working on fixing a insulator cracking problem in the injectors.

    None of these cars used DC electrolysis. Faraday, basic chemistry and thermodynamics do not apply.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  18. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,766
    2,536
    It still adds up the same, you don't have a clue dude, never will.

    Conspiracies exist, but most are in the mind of the few who advocate.

    Again, you use terms like you knew what you were talking about, and I bet you do impress the credulous. A simple high school education is enough to see through most of it, for anyone paying attention. Video magic tricks are even easier than the ones on stage. Lets see you verify it, you talk the talk, now walk it. Science is about verification and repeatability, not empty claims.

    Been said many times, but water is the ash of burning hydrogen and oxygen, you are not going to get more energy from this process. It is a closed system whose potential has been tapped. Words don't change this.

    So if you have the answers lets see it, or are you afraid of the assassins (makes as much sense as the other stuff you've been spouting).

    Fractured Hydrogen, another amazing piece of gibberish. Tain't no such thing, prove me wrong with facts, verifiable facts. Throwing fancy words doesn't impress most of the folks around here, has to do with that education thing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  19. Quarktoo

    New Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    4
    0
    If you are as educated as you intimate, which is laughable, then you would already know all about what I shared. Instead, you have nothing to offer but slur.

    A person asked a question regarding an electronic circuit. I took some time from my day to answer it and point out that he isn't going to defeat Faraday's law and how to bypass that problem.

    I'm not sure I understand what you are saying but I have noticed how the intellectually challenged tend to elect themselves as the spokes persons for others. I suppose it is half wits trying to form a group mentality with the intent to form a single functioning mind. Won't happen.

    Who elected you spokesman of anything? If you don't think water fuel is possible then go away. It has nothing to do with you. If a person wants to explore a circuit to accomplish a task, possible or not, that is not any of your business.

    You are clearly someone that is working to suppress water fuel or an idiot. My guess would be idiot based on my every experience of you and the fact that you don't know how to use a comma properly is just one of the many indications. BYW - That is something that most learn with a "simple high school education." It took me several months to reverse engineer water fuel, you are not even bright enough to understand that it is possible.

    The word credulous is defined as "willing to believe or trust too readily, esp. without proper or adequate evidence; gullible"

    A disbelief is also a credulous act and one that stupid people tend to engage in. You think it is the safe move since you won't be made a sucker by others. Unfortunately people like you are too blinded by your insecurity to realize that you instead make yourself a sucker. You are controlled by your insecurity and it accounts for your low IQ.

    Belief and disbelief are magical thoughts. Knowledge is experience and I know what I am talking about and anyone with two functioning neurons can see that.

    Here is another PHD (Harvard University) that earns his living off water fuel related research and has for close to 20 years.

    http://www.rexresearch.com/millshyd/millshyd.htm

    I am sure you are much smarter than Morgan Stanly or know more about electric power than PP&L.

    Tesla could produce a free energy device too. Unfortunately he too worked for J.P. Morgan just like Randall Mills. Suppression comes in many ways and forms. Don't expect to see the MYT engine any time soon either.

    Morgan Stanley was responsible for bidding up the price of oil over the last few years. They set up an offshore trading Co. in Great Britain to bypass SEC rules. About the time Obama was elected, the US justice dept. launched an investigation and the price suddenly dropped from $4.00 to $1.60 per gallon. The investigation was suppressed and now the price is slipping back up in spite of record surpluses and storage problems.

    Conspirocy? Anyone that actually immerses themselves in the facts knows that it is exactly that. The zionist that control Wall Street and about everything else in this country are clearly a global organized crime syndicate.

    Here are some of Dr. Mills patents. You are bright enough to realize a cyclotron is a particle accelerator aren't you? You know, that accelerator thing I have been writing about that you are clueless about?

    CA2440287 ~ Microwave Power Cell, Chemical Reactor, and Power Converter
    ID24377 ~ No English title available.
    WO03093173 ~ Diamond Synthesis
    ZA200207575 ~ Hydrogen catalysis
    WO03066516 ~ Hydrogen Power, Plasma, and Reactor for Lasing and Power Conversion
    CA2400788 ~ Hydrogen Catalysis
    CA2396559 ~ Ion Cyclotron and Converter and Radio Power Microwave Generator
    CA2320597 ~ Ion Cyclotron and Converter and Radio Power Microwave Generator
    EP1264519 ~ Ion Cyclotron and Converter and Radio Power Microwave Generator
    WO02088020 ~ Microwave Power Cell, Chemical Reactor, and Power Converter
    WO02087291 ~ Microwave Power Cell, Chemical Reactor, and Power Converter
    AU5293901 ~ Hydrogen Catalysis
    WO0170627 ~ Hydrogen Catalysis
    AU6133500 ~ Ion cyclotron Power Converter and Radio and Microwave Generator
    AU734961 ~ Hydrogen Catalysis Power Cell for Energy Conversion Systems
    AU2723301 ~ Ion Cyclotron Power Converter and Radio and Microwave Generator
    AU2723201 ~ Ion Cyclotron and Converter and Radio Power Microwave Generator
    WO0122472 ~ Ion Cyclotron Power Converter and Radio and Microwave Generator
    WO0121300 ~ Ion Cyclotron and Converter and Radio Power Microwave Generator
    EP1031169 ~ Inorganic Hydrogen Compounds, Separation Methods, and Fuel Applications
    EP1029380 ~ Hydrogen Power Catalysis Power Cell for Energy Conversion Systems
    US6024935 ~ Lower-Energy Hydrogen Methods and Structures
    AU3634999 ~ Hydrogen Catalysis Power Cell for Energy Conversion Systems
    AU705379 ~ Lower-Energy Hydrogen Methods and Structures
    AU8477298 ~ Inorganic Hydrogen Compounds, Separation Methods, and Fuel Applications
    CN1187146 ~ Lower-Energy Hydrogen Methods and Structures
    EP0858662 ~ Lower-Energy Hydrogen Methods and Structures
    PL324187 ~ Lower-Energy Hydrogen Methods and Structures
    AU6146596 ~ Lower-Energy Hydrogen Methods and Structures

    What the spooks that troll these web sites are doing is trying to get you to "prove" that you have built the device and then they use what are called "military marching orders" to come to your home, take your stuff and put you under a secrecy order. Don't believe me? Ask a good patent attorney to tell you about it.

    On the other hand, if all you are doing is sharing information, they can't do anything. Nice try troll.

    Only idiot would post on the same web site as you. That would no longer be me. However, I will keep sharing the information and eventually people will figure it out.

    C-ya
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  20. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
    15,815
    282
    You know (this to the saner members), these drive-by scammers really irritate me. Claims of superior understanding out the wazoo, but nothing to back it up but references to patents that have no functioning devices mentioned.

    And, of course, the casual insult tossed off at the end.

    Proof in the form of something that can be made to work under standard conditions is always lacking - so is our respect.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
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