So for a long time I've noticed that corona is sometimes accompanied by nearby cold spots but I always thought it was a "tactile illusion" related to ion wind or just the sensation of fluctuating charge on body hair. But now that I've gone above 200kV practically pure DC the cold spots are so intense that I can see my breath and my IR survey meter shows a temp drop of more than 40 degrees Celsius in places! It's interesting and maybe telling that the effect has a Goldilocks relationship with the corona so to much or too little severely diminishes or annihilates the temp difference effects Another thing, the cold spots are extremely abrupt but as far as I can tell have only slight internal temp gradients. Also the first spot in any 90 degree sector is always within the first 3 meters lateral to the corona discharge which for greatest effect is lengthwise along a wire. The only other info that comes to mind is that the cold spots are more or less conical in shape but sometimes almost cylindrical I can't say for sure b/c I have no way of imaging them at present. So ok, I understand that heat is being partially evacuated from those areas to the rest of the air in the room, that it's nothing miraculous, nothing fringe or over-unity or any of that nonsense! All I'm asking is for an explanation of how it's happening? One other thing! It's just cold air! It doesn't cool solids or liquids from the inside out or anything wierd like that! Thanks!

 

Never heard of anything like this before. Maybe it is some sort of vortex cooling effect. If so, there should be some areas with higher temps (the equations must be balanced!).

 

Never heard of anything like this before. Maybe it is some sort of vortex cooling effect. If so, there should be some areas with higher temps (the equations must be balanced!).

Correct! -- that's precisely what's going on! -- FWIW I'm the process of typing a 'long form' response ...

Best regards
HP

 

Hi,

Very interesting but hurry up and figure this out...i need a new air conditioner and refrigerator

Next up: Firenado for super clean waste management.

 

So for a long time I've noticed that corona is sometimes accompanied by nearby cold spots but I always thought it was a "tactile illusion" related to ion wind or just the sensation of fluctuating charge on body hair. But now that I've gone above 200kV practically pure DC the cold spots are so intense that I can see my breath and my IR survey meter shows a temp drop of more than 40 degrees Celsius in places! It's interesting and maybe telling that the effect has a Goldilocks relationship with the corona so to much or too little severely diminishes or annihilates the temp difference effects Another thing, the cold spots are extremely abrupt but as far as I can tell have only slight internal temp gradients. Also the first spot in any 90 degree sector is always within the first 3 meters lateral to the corona discharge which for greatest effect is lengthwise along a wire. The only other info that comes to mind is that the cold spots are more or less conical in shape but sometimes almost cylindrical I can't say for sure b/c I have no way of imaging them at present. So ok, I understand that heat is being partially evacuated from those areas to the rest of the air in the room, that it's nothing miraculous, nothing fringe or over-unity or any of that nonsense! All I'm asking is for an explanation of how it's happening? One other thing! It's just cold air! It doesn't cool solids or liquids from the inside out or anything wierd like that! Thanks!

Hello, JC what you're describing might best be described as the "free air wirbelrohr effect"...

my IR survey meter shows a temp drop of more than 40 degrees Celsius in places!

FYI -- Convection limits the maximum obtainable drop to ≈ 60°C or to the condensation temperature (i.e. bp) of air -- which ever comes first

It's interesting and maybe telling that the effect has a Goldilocks relationship with the corona so to much or too little severely diminishes or annihilates the temp difference effects

That's as one would expect inasmuch as said phenomenon is tied to e-field strength and, hence 'charge density' (if you'll pardon the liberty)

the cold spots are extremely abrupt

Correct! The temperature gradient is theoretically infinite but as a practical matter limited via the (thermal) conductivity of the plasma (cip 'effected air')

as far as I can tell have only slight internal temp gradients.

Upon closer examination (as, for instance, with an IR camera) you'll find said 'internal gradients' to be steeper than you suppose!

Also the first spot in any 90 degree sector is always within the first 3 meters lateral to the corona discharge

Please be advised that the phenomenon is neither electromagnetic nor acoustic in nature (hence wavelength, phase, etc. are irrelevant) -- as a demonstration of this point note that even slight rearrangement your lab's furnishings will radically shift the 'pattern' -- I assure you it's down to nothing more esoteric than fluid (Spec gas/plasma) dynamics!

corona discharge which for greatest effect is lengthwise along a wire.

Correct! ('interface') area trumps volume where 'ion motion' phenomena are concerned!

the cold spots are more or less conical in shape but sometimes almost cylindrical

Indeed! -- In a 'perfect world' those oriented such that their axes are parallel with the conductor will be perfect cylinders - whereas the transverse vortices will most nearly assume a 'funnel' form ( à la a whirlpool or funnel cloud).

I understand that heat is being partially evacuated from those areas to the rest of the air in the room

I have no way of imaging them at present.

Might I suggest you borrow an IR camera from school? -- I guarantee you'll find a visual representation of said 'thermal landscape' both edifying and intriguing!

It's just cold air!

Correct! -- 'Tis but an 'electrostatically defined' Hilsch tube!

Ok, JC - Here's an exercise -- Granting that the described phenomena are, in fact, issue of vortices-- why is gas rotation imperceptible? -- Note that even a small feather suffered to fall through such a 'cold spot' shows no sign of air rotation -- Why? (hints available upon demonstration of genuine effort)

OBTW -- Kudos on not going all 'Hanz Holzer' (or, much worse, Billy Meier) on us!

Best regards
HP

 

Very interesting but hurry up and figure this out...i need a new air conditioner and refrigerator

You could probably apply it to common refrigeration tasks -- howbeit electrical consumption will be a multiple of that with (standard) evaporative systems -- Then too is the 'annoyance' of arcs and sparks doing their dance of death upon all your electronic devices

Best regards
HP

 

Upon closer examination (as, for instance, with an IR camera) you'll find said 'internal gradients' to be steeper than you suppose!

I have (with everything but an infrared camera) and you're totally correct!

Please be advised that the phenomenon is neither electromagnetic nor acoustic in nature (hence wavelength, phase, etc. are irrelevant)

I can't find a link right now but IIRC there is an alternate theory ascribing vortex tube cooling to acoustic phenomena? So are you saying that's just a woo woo theory?

Indeed! -- In a 'perfect world' those oriented such that their axes are parallel with the conductor will be perfect cylinders - whereas the transverse vortices will most nearly assume a 'funnel' form ( à la a whirlpool or funnel cloud).

As far as I can tell it's just like you say when they aren't being distorted by external air currents!

Might I suggest you borrow an IR camera from school? -- I guarantee you'll find a visual representation of said 'thermal landscape' both edifying and intriguing!

After my mishap with the 4k500st projector I'm sure they'd want a deposit Damn! AV equipment is expensive!

Kudos on not going all 'Hanz Holzer' (or, much worse, Billy Meier) on us!

Hey Hp I'm glad ur pleased but I don't completely get the references? So google tells me Holzer was into spooks and with Meier its extraterrestrial little grey critters So are you saying I was right to refrain from jumping to extraordinary explanations for already explored or at most preternatural phenomena?

Ok, JC - Here's an exercise -- Granting that the described phenomena are, in fact, issue of vortices-- why is gas rotation imperceptible? -- Note that even a small feather suffered to fall through such a 'cold spot' shows no sign of air rotation -- Why? ()

Sry Hp but I don't have a clue unless it's that the mass of the rotating ions is very small compared to the average air mass of the affected volume?

Hey Hp here's something really interesting that maybe ties in with the question you asked in the last paragraph! When a cold spot's volume is occupied by something made of dielectric material the object starts rotating around its center of mass! But here's what's really unexpected! Two or more objects contained in the same cold spot volume can rotate on totally different axes! So does that mean the revolution of the ion stream is polyaxial and the dielectric objects just rotate on a plane determined by their geometry and gravitational orientation? It's funny too that only rigid dielectric objects are effected that way? So earthenware plates and all disk shaped objects I've tried always rotate in the plain of their disk and spherical objects like bowling balls slowly rotate on an axis pointing toward the geocenter! So will you explain that or do you consider it to be part of your question I'm supposed to solve? What the heck! If nothing else it's an electrostatic motor that's a little more balzy than an ion motor with an au foil rotor!

hints available upon demonstration of genuine effort

Ok, Hp here's my best! Since, within any specific cold spot volume, the angles of the planes of rotation of all dielectric objects are ALWAYS within in the same quadrant (Pi/2) AND the angular direction is always CCW viewed from the surfaces facing away from earth, I suspect the Corrialis effect plays a part in it? Beyond that I'm clueless

 

Hey Hp here's something really interesting

JC I say solving Brillouin scattering exercise she gave you b4 she left (which is NOT exercise in post 5 so this is not hint!) will please HP a lot more than your account of playing with your toys! So I say better stop being a truant cuz tomorrow's drawing neigh!

 

Hello You

 

Hello You

So are you JC with a new user name?

 

JC I say solving Brillouin scattering exercise she gave you b4 she left will please HP a lot more than your account of playing with your toys! So I say better stop being a truant cuz tomorrow's drawing neigh!

So far, his Task Master appears to be more pleased than upset with his digression.

 

So far, his Task Master appears to be more pleased than upset with his digression.

GopherT Danger is that HP is always in a lot better mood before a vacation then after return!

 

GopherT Danger is that HP is always in a lot better mood before a vacation then after return!

I had a feeling she was odd.

 

GopherT Danger is that HP is always in a lot better mood before a vacation then after return!

That'd be' the understatement of the epoch this time around!

With jaded regards
HP

 

Hello You

So are you JC with a new user name?

JC please don't create multiple users! Apart from not being particularly 'funny' - it risks putting us all under suspicion of "pulling a Phil Hendrie"

Best regards
HP

 

@Hypatia's Protege I talked to JC and he swears he's not @tuanthanh822004 so I don't understand post 9 but I believe JC is telling the truth! I say sometimes new members just goof around like that! Like yours truly when I was first on here!

 

@Hypatia's Protege I talked to JC and he swears he's not @tuanthanh822004 so I don't understand post 9 but I believe JC is telling the truth! I say sometimes new members just goof around like that! Like yours truly when I was first on here!

There is no way JC is the same as tuanthan822004. Google tuanthan822004 and you'll find some guy who has registered for hundreds of forums so he can cross-post his website under his personal info. He appears to be some sort of real-estate agent pushing his wares. Vinhomesgardenia.domain

 

There is no way JC is the same as tuanthan822004. Google tuanthan822004 and you'll find some guy who has registered for hundreds of forums so he can cross-post his website under his personal info. He appears to be some sort of real-estate agent pushing his wares. Vinhomesgardenia.domain

Tnx GopherT! JC will be happy to be completely out of suspicion!

 

There is no way JC is the same as tuanthan822004. Google tuanthan822004 and you'll find some guy who has registered for hundreds of forums so he can cross-post his website under his personal info. He appears to be some sort of real-estate agent pushing his wares. Vinhomesgardenia.domain

Good news indeed! -- Sincere thanks for one less thing to worry about!

Best regards
HP

 

@Jazz2C -- Please be advised that I intend response to post #7 following attention to the kind assistance I've received (Re: LtSpice), review of feedback (Re: the tutorial) and completion of the tutorial itself! -- please don't take your 'tertiary prioritization' personally! - 'Tis merely that you won't likely 'drop by' these fora prior to Monday - and the tutorial has been 'withering on the vine' quite long enough! -- In the meantime please be advised that the described kinetic phenomena are corollary of acoustic soliton formation/action secondary to 'ion pressure' gradiants -- for your safety I strongly advise suspension of IM experiments pending (our) further discussion of this matter!

But now that I've gone above 200kV practically pure DC

Think again! You're 'above' 700kV -- Believe it!

Very best regards
HP