Heat pumping action of corona?

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Jazz2C, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. Jazz2C

    Thread Starter Member

    May 27, 2016
    38
    11
    So for a long time I've noticed that corona is sometimes accompanied by nearby cold spots but I always thought it was a "tactile illusion" related to ion wind or just the sensation of fluctuating charge on body hair. But now that I've gone above 200kV practically pure DC the cold spots are so intense that I can see my breath and my IR survey meter shows a temp drop of more than 40 degrees Celsius in places! It's interesting and maybe telling that the effect has a Goldilocks relationship with the corona so to much or too little severely diminishes or annihilates the temp difference effects:confused: Another thing, the cold spots are extremely abrupt but as far as I can tell have only slight internal temp gradients. Also the first spot in any 90 degree sector is always within the first 3 meters lateral to the corona discharge which for greatest effect is lengthwise along a wire. The only other info that comes to mind is that the cold spots are more or less conical in shape but sometimes almost cylindrical I can't say for sure b/c I have no way of imaging them at present. So ok, I understand that heat is being partially evacuated from those areas to the rest of the air in the room, that it's nothing miraculous, nothing fringe or over-unity or any of that nonsense! All I'm asking is for an explanation of how it's happening? One other thing! It's just cold air! It doesn't cool solids or liquids from the inside out or anything wierd like that!:rolleyes: Thanks!:)
     
  2. SLK001

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 29, 2011
    811
    224
    Never heard of anything like this before. Maybe it is some sort of vortex cooling effect. If so, there should be some areas with higher temps (the equations must be balanced!).
     
    Jazz2C and Hypatia's Protege like this.
  3. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
    2,780
    1,219
    Correct! -- that's precisely what's going on! -- FWIW I'm the process of typing a 'long form' response:):):) ...

    Best regards
    HP
     
  4. MrAl

    Well-Known Member

    Jun 17, 2014
    2,418
    488
    Hi,

    Very interesting but hurry up and figure this out...i need a new air conditioner and refrigerator :)

    Next up: Firenado for super clean waste management.
     
    Jazz2C and Hypatia's Protege like this.
  5. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
    2,780
    1,219
    Hello, JC what you're describing might best be described as the "free air wirbelrohr effect"...
    FYI -- Convection limits the maximum obtainable drop to ≈ 60°C or to the condensation temperature (i.e. bp) of air -- which ever comes first:cool:
    That's as one would expect inasmuch as said phenomenon is tied to e-field strength and, hence 'charge density' (if you'll pardon the liberty:oops:)
    Correct! The temperature gradient is theoretically infinite but as a practical matter limited via the (thermal) conductivity of the plasma (cip 'effected air')
    Upon closer examination (as, for instance, with an IR camera) you'll find said 'internal gradients' to be steeper than you suppose!:cool:
    Please be advised that the phenomenon is neither electromagnetic nor acoustic in nature (hence wavelength, phase, etc. are irrelevant) -- as a demonstration of this point note that even slight rearrangement your lab's furnishings will radically shift the 'pattern' -- I assure you it's down to nothing more esoteric than fluid (Spec gas/plasma) dynamics!:cool:
    Correct! ('interface') area trumps volume where 'ion motion' phenomena are concerned!:cool:

    Indeed! -- In a 'perfect world' those oriented such that their axes are parallel with the conductor will be perfect cylinders - whereas the transverse vortices will most nearly assume a 'funnel' form ( à la a whirlpool or funnel cloud).

    Might I suggest you borrow an IR camera from school? -- I guarantee you'll find a visual representation of said 'thermal landscape' both edifying and intriguing!:cool:

    Correct! -- 'Tis but an 'electrostatically defined' Hilsch tube!:)

    Ok, JC - Here's an exercise -- Granting that the described phenomena are, in fact, issue of vortices-- why is gas rotation imperceptible? -- Note that even a small feather suffered to fall through such a 'cold spot' shows no sign of air rotation -- Why? (hints available upon demonstration of genuine effort):cool::cool::cool:

    OBTW -- Kudos on not going all 'Hanz Holzer' (or, much worse, Billy Meier) on us!:D:)

    Best regards
    HP:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
    Sinus23 and joeyd999 like this.
  6. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
    2,780
    1,219
    You could probably apply it to common refrigeration tasks -- howbeit electrical consumption will be a multiple of that with (standard) evaporative systems -- Then too is the 'annoyance' of arcs and sparks doing their dance of death upon all your electronic devices:eek::D

    Best regards
    HP:)
     
  7. Jazz2C

    Thread Starter Member

    May 27, 2016
    38
    11
    I have (with everything but an infrared camera) and you're totally correct!:)

    I can't find a link right now but IIRC there is an alternate theory ascribing vortex tube cooling to acoustic phenomena? So are you saying that's just a woo woo theory?

    As far as I can tell it's just like you say when they aren't being distorted by external air currents!:cool:

    After my mishap with the 4k500st projector I'm sure they'd want a deposit:oops: Damn! AV equipment is expensive!:eek:

    Hey Hp I'm glad ur pleased but I don't completely get the references? So google tells me Holzer was into spooks and with Meier its extraterrestrial little grey critters:rolleyes: So are you saying I was right to refrain from jumping to extraordinary explanations for already explored or at most preternatural phenomena?

    Sry Hp but I don't have a clue unless it's that the mass of the rotating ions is very small compared to the average air mass of the affected volume?

    Hey Hp here's something really interesting that maybe ties in with the question you asked in the last paragraph! When a cold spot's volume is occupied by something made of dielectric material the object starts rotating around its center of mass! But here's what's really unexpected! Two or more objects contained in the same cold spot volume can rotate on totally different axes!o_O So does that mean the revolution of the ion stream is polyaxial and the dielectric objects just rotate on a plane determined by their geometry and gravitational orientation?:confused: It's funny too that only rigid dielectric objects are effected that way? So earthenware plates and all disk shaped objects I've tried always rotate in the plain of their disk and spherical objects like bowling balls slowly rotate on an axis pointing toward the geocenter! So will you explain that or do you consider it to be part of your question I'm supposed to solve?:cool: What the heck! If nothing else it's an electrostatic motor that's a little more balzy than an ion motor with an au foil rotor!:D

    Ok, Hp here's my best! Since, within any specific cold spot volume, the angles of the planes of rotation of all dielectric objects are ALWAYS within in the same quadrant (Pi/2) AND the angular direction is always CCW viewed from the surfaces facing away from earth, I suspect the Corrialis effect plays a part in it? Beyond that I'm clueless :oops:
     
  8. Aleph(0)

    Member

    Mar 14, 2015
    343
    322
    JC I say solving Brillouin scattering exercise she gave you b4 she left (which is NOT exercise in post 5 so this is not hint:p!) will please HP a lot more than your account of playing with your toys! So I say better stop being a truant cuz tomorrow's drawing neigh:p!
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  9. tuanthanh822004

    New Member

    Sep 5, 2016
    1
    0
    Hello You
     
  10. Aleph(0)

    Member

    Mar 14, 2015
    343
    322
    So are you JC with a new user name:rolleyes:?
     
  11. GopherT

    AAC Fanatic!

    Nov 23, 2012
    5,989
    3,734
    So far, his Task Master appears to be more pleased than upset with his digression.
     
    Aleph(0) likes this.
  12. Aleph(0)

    Member

    Mar 14, 2015
    343
    322
    GopherT Danger is that HP is always in a lot better mood before a vacation then after return:eek::D!
     
  13. GopherT

    AAC Fanatic!

    Nov 23, 2012
    5,989
    3,734
    I had a feeling she was odd.
     
    Hypatia's Protege and Aleph(0) like this.
  14. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
    2,780
    1,219
    That'd be' the understatement of the epoch this time around!:mad::rolleyes:

    With jaded regards
    HP
     
  15. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
    2,780
    1,219
    JC please don't create multiple users! Apart from not being particularly 'funny' - it risks putting us all under suspicion of "pulling a Phil Hendrie":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Best regards
    HP
     
  16. Aleph(0)

    Member

    Mar 14, 2015
    343
    322
    @Hypatia's Protege I talked to JC and he swears he's not @tuanthanh822004 so I don't understand post 9 but I believe JC is telling the truth:)! I say sometimes new members just goof around like that! Like yours truly when I was first on here:oops::D!
     
    Hypatia's Protege likes this.
  17. GopherT

    AAC Fanatic!

    Nov 23, 2012
    5,989
    3,734
    There is no way JC is the same as tuanthan822004. Google tuanthan822004 and you'll find some guy who has registered for hundreds of forums so he can cross-post his website under his personal info. He appears to be some sort of real-estate agent pushing his wares. Vinhomesgardenia.domain
     
  18. Aleph(0)

    Member

    Mar 14, 2015
    343
    322
    Tnx GopherT! JC will be happy to be completely out of suspicion:)!
     
  19. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
    2,780
    1,219
    Good news indeed!:) -- Sincere thanks for one less thing to worry about!:cool:

    Best regards
    HP:)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  20. Hypatia's Protege

    Distinguished Member

    Mar 1, 2015
    2,780
    1,219
    @Jazz2C -- Please be advised that I intend response to post #7 following attention to the kind assistance I've received (Re: LtSpice), review of feedback (Re: the tutorial) and completion of the tutorial itself! -- please don't take your 'tertiary prioritization' personally! - 'Tis merely that you won't likely 'drop by' these fora prior to Monday - and the tutorial has been 'withering on the vine' quite long enough!:oops: -- In the meantime please be advised that the described kinetic phenomena are corollary of acoustic soliton formation/action secondary to 'ion pressure' gradiants -- for your safety I strongly advise suspension of IM experiments pending (our) further discussion of this matter!

    Think again! You're 'above' 700kV -- Believe it!:)

    Very best regards
    HP:)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
Loading...