Focus on Safety

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by jpanhalt, Dec 4, 2010.

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  1. jpanhalt

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

    Jan 18, 2008
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    Most of us are aware of restrictions here about discussion of certain topics that might lead to unsafe practices. For example, we cannot discusses mains powered equipment unless there is a transformer. It is stated that power supplies without a transformer, "can't be made safe."

    I have seen a fair number of deaths related to motorcycles, which raises the question of whether motorcycles, "can be made safe." The fact that a lot are in use and many members here enjoy riding them is irrelevant to that argument. Many of us use electrical equipment that is not isolated from the mains too.

    Some facts (US):

    Motorcycle deaths (2008) -- 5,290
    Accidental death from electric shock per year -- <1000*

    The number of Americans potentially exposed to mains electricity probably far exceeds the number who ride motorcycles. If we continue to discuss motorcycles -- they can't be made safe -- , I suggest that they be covered under exactly the same rules as apply to any motor vehicle, including modifications to their lighting systems.

    Alternatively, let's revisit some of the existing rules on shock and automobiles.

    John

    Sources:
    1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motorcycle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

    2) Data on deaths from electric shock were harder to find. I had hoped the MMWR (CDC) would have them, but it had nothing recent. These sources estimate such deaths at less than 1000 per year in the US:
    http://www.answers.com/topic/electric-shock-injuries
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock
     
  2. Kermit2

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 5, 2010
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    I hope I don't scare anyone, but

    everyone of you will die.

    sometime, someplace, that no one can predict.

    Life is a terminal illness, that kills you in 100 years or less.
     
  3. Georacer

    Moderator

    Nov 25, 2009
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    Maybe, but a death by old age isn't prone to cause lawsuit and lifetime guilt to the replier of a thread...
     
  4. Kermit2

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    It also goes unspoken that the choices a person makes during his illness can needlessly hasten the terminal phase of it.



    Some one here said it I think. "There is no fixing stupid"


    But there is a predictable outcome. Our society desires to make others responseable for the choices I make and to give punishment to others, should my choices injure or kill me.

    Society seems to suffer from the same unfixable problem as individuals. It is 'stupid'.

    SO-there is no 'fixing' society, if the quote can counted on.
    :)
     
  5. jpanhalt

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

    Jan 18, 2008
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    I chose the Feedback and Suggestions forum rather than Off-Topic specifically, because I was giving feedback and a suggestion. I did not want to get into a "death is inevitable" philosophical discussion. And, I would like my suggestion to get other than a "no comment" move by a moderator.

    I gave death statistics, because I think relative risk is something to consider. We have gladly given advice on aircraft navigation lights and motorcycle headlights, but automobiles are pretty much off the table.

    Which seems more risky, a motor cycle at night in rain with a headlight that fails or an automobile under the same conditions? The fact that the motorcyclist wanted to "improve" safety is irrelevant. What he wants is not the issue. His circuit may have been more prone to failure than the OEM circuit, particularly in rain.

    These and other matters related to safety have been discussed many times, and typically I suggest getting legal counsel about the risks and acting accordingly. That does not seem to have been done, so we have these conflicting examples. If it has been done, please explain the rationale to those of us who don't grasp it intuitively.

    Lest I be misunderstood, I think the restrictions on automobiles and power supplies go too far, not that we are too lenient on motorcycles. As for the power supply policy, it is easy to find many exceptions, including the current thread on converting PC supply into a bench supply.

    1) I suggest that automotive and motorcycle/scooter discussions have the same restrictions.

    2) I suggest that questions about power supplies, high voltage, and so forth be dealt with on a case-by-case basis and there be no rigid "we don't discuss supplies without transformers here" policy.

    John
     
  6. retched

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    I am torn.

    I haven't done the research, but I wounder how many of the electrical deaths were linesmen or others in high-power, high-voltage. tens of kW.

    1000 deaths per 700,000 linemen at work in the U.S. per year is not crazy.

    How many are in-home or hobby related?

    [ed]
    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/98-131/epidemi.html#fig1

    http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/e/electrocution/deaths.htm

    [/ed]
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010
  7. thatoneguy

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    Feb 19, 2009
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    110VAC is an annoying tingle.

    200+ isn't

    If we don't advise the "One Hand Rule", they will seek information elsewhere, probably with worse tips than we are able to provide.

    If it is about liability of the forum (and ability to exist), only for the fact for a lawyer to say "The rules are stated clearly that it was not advised" to get off a million dollar "wrongful death" lawsuit, then it is the way it is. It reinforces my disdain of today's legal system in the US.

    Otherwise, I have no dog in this hunt.

    I go to machine gun shoots with live ammo, including APIT and DDs (Destructive Devices, such as LAW Rockets), and the safety rules are along the lines of "If you get hurt, it is your fault, coming here and participating absolves the host of any liability". It is a form to sign, and many of the "Big Name" defense contractors run them.
     
  8. jpanhalt

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

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    @retched, Thanks for linking to the CDC analysis. I saw the citations, but as it was not current, I didn't bother to read it. My bad.

    Tried to find the number of motorcycle registrations i the USA. Got data for 2005 as 6.2 million (http://www-958.ibm.com/software/dat...izations/passenger-cars-trucks-motorcycle-reg). Let's assume some good sales years and adjust that number for 2008 to 10 million (it makes the math easier). That equates to a death rate per 100,000 registered motorcycles of 53 per year.

    53 deaths per 100,000 motorcycles far exceeds the death rate/100,000 workers from electrical shock of <0.3 observed in 1992 (NIOSH data).

    However one looks at the data, as a cause of accidental death, motorcycles are far more dangerous than electrical shock. Yet, we continue to discuss the former, but subjects that might contribute to the latter (mains powered projects without isolation) are not discussed. That is despite the fact that this is an electronics forum, not a motorcycle forum.

    I believe my suggestions in post #5 are consistent with these data.

    John
     
  9. JoeJester

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    Apr 26, 2005
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    John,

    I agree the automotive rules apply to all forms of motorized transportation. Any illumination must conform to the local countries laws ... collectively, we are ignorant of the OPs laws. The unknown factor has always been the OP. That unknown led to some rules.

    Everything discussed here is on a case-by-case basis.

    The homework rules are a fine example. We've seen people jump in and give the answer with disregard to the professional development of the OP.

    Below is a copy of the IEEE Code of Ethics. They could apply to these forums.

     
  10. Georacer

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    Nov 25, 2009
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    An InstaFav!

    I find these 10 commandments very descriptive, fair and thorough.

    As always the pittholes lie in the interpretation...
     
  11. GetDeviceInfo

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    Jun 7, 2009
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  12. plankieee

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  13. MrChips

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    Old thread now dead.
     
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