Faster than speed of light?

Mike M.

Joined Oct 9, 2007
104
So no mass travelling faster than light. That is the crux here.

I am open to the suggestion of an example that challenges the status-quo...not sure I'll get one mind you.

Dave
If you multiplex a standing wave of electrons through multiple radially-oriented conductive loops on a circle towards the center with a fast enough switching speed, at the outside of the circle the macroscopic wavefront of electrons can be moving FTL but any individual electron when examined will be going slower than light.

That is about as close as I can get for you.
 

randomEE

Joined Oct 16, 2007
3
The actual speed limit is for information. That is, information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. Well what was information mean? For example, an electric field wave moves with a given phase velocity which can travel faster than the speed of light. A group of waves forming a wave packet (or envelope) can travel faster than the speed of light, but information cannot!

Well what is "information" when it comes to these Electric field waves? Think of it this way. The channel that the wave is going to travel along is initially undisturbed or zero. There is a moment when the channel is perturbed, a field is generated and at that point the field goes from 0 to to a non zero value. That is a discontinuity, i.e. it is not a smoothly occuring change like say a wave is.
That abrupt discontinuity in the wave (or its derivatives for that matter) is what constitutes information, and that discontinuity cannot travel faster than light.


here is more information on relevant stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial
 

Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,969
The actual speed limit is for information. That is, information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. Well what was information mean? For example, an electric field wave moves with a given phase velocity which can travel faster than the speed of light. A group of waves forming a wave packet (or envelope) can travel faster than the speed of light, but information cannot!

Well what is "information" when it comes to these Electric field waves? Think of it this way. The channel that the wave is going to travel along is initially undisturbed or zero. There is a moment when the channel is perturbed, a field is generated and at that point the field goes from 0 to to a non zero value. That is a discontinuity, i.e. it is not a smoothly occuring change like say a wave is.
That abrupt discontinuity in the wave (or its derivatives for that matter) is what constitutes information, and that discontinuity cannot travel faster than light.


here is more information on relevant stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial
Interesting insight, I have heard the information theory on FTL before. Essentially if it is true, then mass cannot travel FTL because mass has information about physicality?

The guys down the corridor from me have that beat!
That's the one that made the news here in the UK - the one new item everyone watched and no-one understood!

Dave
 

Mike M.

Joined Oct 9, 2007
104
The actual speed limit is for information. That is, information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. Well what was information mean? For example, an electric field wave moves with a given phase velocity which can travel faster than the speed of light. A group of waves forming a wave packet (or envelope) can travel faster than the speed of light, but information cannot!

Well what is "information" when it comes to these Electric field waves? Think of it this way. The channel that the wave is going to travel along is initially undisturbed or zero. There is a moment when the channel is perturbed, a field is generated and at that point the field goes from 0 to to a non zero value. That is a discontinuity, i.e. it is not a smoothly occuring change like say a wave is.
That abrupt discontinuity in the wave (or its derivatives for that matter) is what constitutes information, and that discontinuity cannot travel faster than light.


here is more information on relevant stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial
The wave need not be discontinuous if it can use an interation with another wave to first transmit information between the two, before the 1st disappears only after the 3rd appears. There must be at least 2 fields overlapping AT ANY GIVEN INSTANT. If the standing wave loops, as I descibed earlier, were overlapping, say 50%, then the first would activate, the second then activates, then the third activates, the first deactivates, the fourth activates, the second deactivates, the fifth activates, the third deactivates..........and so on. This would allow for the overall field to maintain an overall continuity while the front of it rises in discrete steps and the back drops off with discrete steps. Information regarding the 2-3 active waves can then intermingle, thus maintaining that continuity as a macroscopic rising and falling of a single contiuous wavefront.
 

beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
Those are special case devices known as tunnel diodes. They are doped such that the method of conduction is quantum tunneling. The conduction mechanism almost looks like a non-resistance. Kinda hard to measure time to move an electron from one side of a p-n junction to the other, tho. They don't come in colors, so it's hard to tell one from another.
 

randomEE

Joined Oct 16, 2007
3
The wave need not be discontinuous if it can use an interation with another wave to first transmit information between the two, before the 1st disappears only after the 3rd appears. There must be at least 2 fields overlapping AT ANY GIVEN INSTANT. If the standing wave loops, as I descibed earlier, were overlapping, say 50%, then the first would activate, the second then activates, then the third activates, the first deactivates, the fourth activates, the second deactivates, the fifth activates, the third deactivates..........and so on. This would allow for the overall field to maintain an overall continuity while the front of it rises in discrete steps and the back drops off with discrete steps. Information regarding the 2-3 active waves can then intermingle, thus maintaining that continuity as a macroscopic rising and falling of a single contiuous wavefront.
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here with the waves interacting with one another by activating.

In any case, I should have specified that information is thought to exist in the wave's discontinuity. The discontinuity however can be in one of its derivatives. A sin wave with exponential decay has ONLY smooth continuous derivatives, and thus has no information. A generator or source that goes from off to on however will have a discontinuity in one of its derivatives. Not the actual wave itself, but one of its derivatives.

As for mass travelling faster than light, I think General relativity forbids that. The faster mass goes, the slower it's time becomes, and the shorter its length becomes as you approach c.

As for electrons tunelling, they still don't supercede the speed of light. Their group delay might, but not the information delay.

Note, for more information on this signal delays, you can find more by researching brillouin forerunner for example.
 

Ohms Law

Joined Oct 14, 2007
32
Thanks Beenthere i knew it was diodes just forgot tunnel diodes there kickin my ass in school so i get it halfway right cause i'm braindead.
 

xenotime

Joined Nov 10, 2007
5
Do you have an example of something with mass that is faster than light?

Dave

Actually, yes.

Everything we can see in known universe travelled FTL at some point.

If the theory of Big Bang is correct, then the whole universe started in one infinitely small point and expanded as a result of an explosion. With it's expansion, the temperature of whole universe dropped down. Taking into consideration size of todays universe - 13.7 billion light years across, if it expanded at speeds not exceeding LS we should be able to see the unevenness of temperature of universe background (intergalactic space) i.e. hotter in the center and cooler at the edges. But temperature across Space is surprisingly even. And that proves that universe expanded with speeds exceeding speed of light.

All that happened during 'dark ages' in first few billion years of life of our universe, long before creation of first stars and light itself. It was possible because all 4 basic forces (strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravitational) were bonded into one Super Force. The gravitational force was then the first one separate itself, enabling creation of first stars... The rest is a history...

So as you can see all matter in the whole unverse was FTL. How's that for an example? :)
 

Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,969
Actually, yes.

Everything we can see in known universe travelled FTL at some point.

If the theory of Big Bang is correct, then the whole universe started in one infinitely small point and expanded as a result of an explosion. With it's expansion, the temperature of whole universe dropped down. Taking into consideration size of todays universe - 13.7 billion light years across, if it expanded at speeds not exceeding LS we should be able to see the unevenness of temperature of universe background (intergalactic space) i.e. hotter in the center and cooler at the edges. But temperature across Space is surprisingly even. And that proves that universe expanded with speeds exceeding speed of light.

All that happened during 'dark ages' in first few billion years of life of our universe, long before creation of first stars and light itself. It was possible because all 4 basic forces (strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravitational) were bonded into one Super Force. The gravitational force was then the first one separate itself, enabling creation of first stars... The rest is a history...

So as you can see all matter in the whole unverse was FTL. How's that for an example? :)
Interesting. Certainly not something I have heard before in scientific literature. Do you have a citation for this information?

Dave
 

Mike M.

Joined Oct 9, 2007
104
Interesting. Certainly not something I have heard before in scientific literature. Do you have a citation for this information?

Dave
It is called the Inflationary model. See the section titled "Horizon Problem". I probably don't have answers that xenotime may have.......just the citation. It appears though that the FTL is only referencing the RELATIVE velocities between 2 opposite ends of the universe based on both sections traveling faster than 0.5c away from each other and thus FTL, in relative terms. As for being homogenous, that can be attributed to a multitude of things arising from the incomplete separation of forces and dimensions at that early time. Since pair particles usually are created in symmetry, that most likely had a great deal to do with the homogenous formation, both in initial formation and also in the real and observable FTL communication of information, and thus physical changes, between them and their states, such as spin orientation. The cumulative of single microscopic effects in a large number of pair particles (5x10^86) that influence each other using FTL communication can produce large macroscopic effects of homogeneity across the entire universe and are still producing mirroring effects today but just a much much much smaller effect that at the very beginning.
 

beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
Inflation is supposed to be influenced by the Higgs particle. In order for the observable universe to have the qualities we see today, it was necessary for the particles formed by the Big Bang to have expanded at a rate that exceeded light speed for a brief period.

The Higgs boson (or, at one time, the intermediate vector boson) has been posited to have mediated this expansion by having both positive and negative energy states. Nobody has found that particular snipe yet, so it remains a bit hypothetical to date.

I wouldn't get all trembly about it - the theory that has the Higgs particle in it doesn't account for dark matter and energy (or gravity, for that matter - pun intended). It is likely that all origin-of-all-we-see theory is going to need serious revision before too much longer. Things keep getting more complex, and experience argues for greater simplicity.
 

Mike M.

Joined Oct 9, 2007
104
Inflation is supposed to be influenced by the Higgs particle. In order for the observable universe to have the qualities we see today, it was necessary for the particles formed by the Big Bang to have expanded at a rate that exceeded light speed for a brief period.

The Higgs boson (or, at one time, the intermediate vector boson) has been posited to have mediated this expansion by having both positive and negative energy states. Nobody has found that particular snipe yet, so it remains a bit hypothetical to date.

I wouldn't get all trembly about it - the theory that has the Higgs particle in it doesn't account for dark matter and energy (or gravity, for that matter - pun intended). It is likely that all origin-of-all-we-see theory is going to need serious revision before too much longer. Things keep getting more complex, and experience argues for greater simplicity.
I postulated once that gravity may be due to the constant absorbtion and re-emission of negative mass particles with particles that have mass, similar to photon coupling to radiate a force. If a negative particle mass hits a particle with mass, the resultant inertial value will be greater in the vector towards the source of negative mass, or mass. If negative mass is ejected from mass towards another object of mass, the opposite occurs and the reaction of the massive particle follows the negative mass along the same vector direction towards the other massive particle. This would form a straight-line connection between every particle with mass and every other particle with mass in the entire universe, via negative mass interactions. The only problem is that it means that communication of gravity would have to be slower than light, not at or above it.
 

xenotime

Joined Nov 10, 2007
5
Interesting. Certainly not something I have heard before in scientific literature. Do you have a citation for this information?

Dave
It was on Discovery Channel in UK about 2 weeks ago in series called 'space weekend'. I can find out some literature for you though, as I am interested in it myself.
 

Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,969
It is called the Inflationary model. See the section titled "Horizon Problem". I probably don't have answers that xenotime may have.......just the citation. It appears though that the FTL is only referencing the RELATIVE velocities between 2 opposite ends of the universe based on both sections traveling faster than 0.5c away from each other and thus FTL, in relative terms. As for being homogenous, that can be attributed to a multitude of things arising from the incomplete separation of forces and dimensions at that early time. Since pair particles usually are created in symmetry, that most likely had a great deal to do with the homogenous formation, both in initial formation and also in the real and observable FTL communication of information, and thus physical changes, between them and their states, such as spin orientation. The cumulative of single microscopic effects in a large number of pair particles (5x10^86) that influence each other using FTL communication can produce large macroscopic effects of homogeneity across the entire universe and are still producing mirroring effects today but just a much much much smaller effect that at the very beginning.
FTL in relative terms does not me imply that mass is exceeding the speed of light, however one can always argue that speed is a relative principle. Its easy to see why Einstein believed in the ether.

Dave
 

Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,969
It was on Discovery Channel in UK about 2 weeks ago in series called 'space weekend'. I can find out some literature for you though, as I am interested in it myself.
Please do if you can, its an interesting topic and one we may not have all the (correct) answers to.

Dave
 

studiot

Joined Nov 9, 2007
4,998
Incidentally, contrary to some beliefs 'apparent FTL' does not violate the laws of general relativity.
True

Actually the mathematics of relativity merely describe what happens to certain physical quantities as velocities approach the speed of light. They provide the equivalent of a discontinuity or pole at the speed of light and no information whatsoever beyond that speed.

There are many phenomenon in Physics where such a discontinuity in the mathematics occurs and the physical phenomenon has (apparently) two values at a particular value. As an example take the transition from sub critical to super critical flow - the 'hydraulic jump' . Modern mathematics forbids functions to have more than one y value at a given x value, but the hydraulic jump indubitably exists and is used to dissapate energy at hydroelectric stations. The mathematics simply can't model the transition area.

Perhaps there is more mathematics than we currently know about beyond light speed?

The Catt anomaly anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivor_Catt
 
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