Fake parts, is this too far?

joeyd999

Joined Jun 6, 2011
5,283
Strawman. This is an IP rights discussion, it's not about physical stolen property.
Agreed. And, again, I am not defending them based upon any legal reasoning. Let's just say things like this make me angry, and I understand why they took the approach they did.

Edit: Oh, and they probably did it out of complete exasperation in light of their probable failure to stop the counterfeits via application of the law.
 

Thread Starter

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,272
Agreed. And, again, I am not defending them based upon any legal reasoning. Let's just say things like this make me angry, and I understand why they took the approach they did.

Edit: Oh, and they probably did it out of complete exasperation in light of their probable failure to stop the counterfeits via application of the law.
Some of us work for large companies with a large amount of valuable IP that needs protection so I understand the exasperation in seeing clones proliferate but this was the 'No Mercy' nuclear option.
 

joeyd999

Joined Jun 6, 2011
5,283
So would you authorize this if someone (a third-party who did not know) used a device with your stolen IP?
I said I understand it. I don't know what I'd do in this particular instance. When it happens to me, I'll let you how I beat the Kobayashi Maru scenario.
 

ErnieM

Joined Apr 24, 2011
8,377
I said I understand it. I don't know what I'd do in this particular instance. When it happens to me, I'll let you how I beat the Kobayashi Maru scenario.
It is a well known established fact the sole method of beating the Kobayashi Maru scenario is to reprogram the computer, which is essentially what FTDI is doing here.

I have no complaint with a vendor bricking out clone devices stamped with that vendor's logo and other identifying information. This should not only put consumers on notice (not that us hapless fools have any real control) also but the hardware manufacturers with any sense of producing a quality product who have been using these clones.

It's fairly straightforward to buy honest components. It is also surprisingly easy to buy fakes when you let price be the sole factor in selecting a source.
 

Lestraveled

Joined May 19, 2014
1,946
Relax your strangle holds for a moment.

I think FTDI was firing for effect. Do something outlandish, get a lot of attention, slap board makers across face. Make them wary of who they buy their chips from. Then back off. Mission accomplished. Worth every penny.
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,498
I sympathize with FTDI and I thought I was going to defend their action. You used a counterfeit part and now it's bricked. Boo hoo. You deserve what you get.

But then I got to thinking of the extreme scenario, a technique which often helps clarify an issue. What if the equipment being bricked was mission-critical or medical, and people died as a direct result of FTDI's actions (intentional or not)? I think few would defend them in this scenario. They might be charged with negligent homicide or worse.

They have a legitimate complaint but they need to solve it without as much collateral damage.
 

ErnieM

Joined Apr 24, 2011
8,377
But then I got to thinking of the extreme scenario, a technique which often helps clarify an issue. What if the equipment being bricked was mission-critical or medical, and people died as a direct result of FTDI's actions (intentional or not)? I think few would defend them in this scenario. They might be charged with negligent homicide or worse..
Sorry you stretched it past the breaking point. Any honorable manufacturer of human life critical equipment damn well better have their supply chain in line and not supplying counterfeit parts.

Besides, no way can some arbitrary piece of vendor software be used in mission critical equipment. I mean, what if it decides to brick some component it doesn't recognize?
 

Thread Starter

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,272
Besides, no way can some arbitrary piece of vendor software be used in mission critical equipment. I mean, what if it decides to brick some component it doesn't recognize?
I wish that were true in all cases. In this case Microsoft pushed out a 'trusted' signed and certified driver from the OEM to the update server. Everybody in the world would have received that driver if the systems were on a network that connected to a public or private network that serves updates if that computer was setup to receive updates. Having isolated networks ,disabled driver updates and having locked down systems protects us for malware from hackers and configuration change bugs but we don't expect to see that stuff pushed into the 'trusted' update stream from an OEM in a heavy-handed manner.
 

ErnieM

Joined Apr 24, 2011
8,377
I wish that were true in all cases. In this case Microsoft pushed out a 'trusted' signed and certified driver from the OEM to the update server. Everybody in the world would have received that driver if the systems were on a network that connected to a public or private network that serves updates if that computer was setup to receive updates. Having isolated networks ,disabled driver updates and having locked down systems protects us for malware from hackers and configuration change bugs but we don't expect to see that stuff pushed into the 'trusted' update stream from an OEM in a heavy-handed manner.
Exactly my point, which is another reason Microsoft is not considered suitable for mission critical equipment.

There is a story (probably true) about a Doctor (almost I hope) loosing (almost ipatient on the table during open heart surgery when the brilliant tracking software he was running on Excel in a laptop crashed.

While I have written but a single program tested to IEC 60601 I can tell you the step where you just assume some arbitrary software unit is suitable for use does not exist.
 
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GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,009
"Sorry your Goodyear tires are not genuine- detaching them right now, buy better ones".
If those tires are seen by a Goodyear dealer or distributor when your car is in for service, they will absolutely be removed in the US. Otherwise it shows that Goodyear is endorsing the tire and subject to product liability if the tires fail. Any service station (associated with Goodyear or not) should not remount, rotate, balance or even add air to a tire that they believe is not roadworthy (evidence of counterfeit is considered non-road worthy in most states).

Tires are counterfeited in Europe, Asia and the Middle East quite regularly. Not so much of a problem in the US.
 

Thread Starter

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,272
Exactly my point, which is another reason Microsoft is not considered suitable for mission critical equipment.
That was once true but today most of the latest technology in semiconductor processing equipment and medical technology based on the same physics are now hosted on specific server versions of windows. That's mission critical for the production of products and services. The computer control system for these machines now require vast horsepower for precise control of dosing/imaging and most of the CS grads have cut their teeth in a windows programming environment so that's what they use to develop new systems.

Typical machine with windows today.
http://www.nnfc.re.kr/eng/U_service/03_equipment_v.jsp?seq=16&gubn=1
 

takao21203

Joined Apr 28, 2012
3,702
If those tires are seen by a Goodyear dealer or distributor when your car is in for service, they will absolutely be removed in the US. Otherwise it shows that Goodyear is endorsing the tire and subject to product liability if the tires fail. Any service station (associated with Goodyear or not) should not remount, rotate, balance or even add air to a tire that they believe is not roadworthy (evidence of counterfeit is considered non-road worthy in most states).

Tires are counterfeited in Europe, Asia and the Middle East quite regularly. Not so much of a problem in the US.
I was rather thinking this would happen automatically while driving.
 

ErnieM

Joined Apr 24, 2011
8,377
That was once true but today most of the latest technology in semiconductor processing equipment and medical technology based on the same physics are now hosted on specific server versions of windows. That's mission critical for the production of products and services. The computer control system for these machines now require vast horsepower for precise control of dosing/imaging and most of the CS grads have cut their teeth in a windows programming environment so that's what they use to develop new systems.

Typical machine with windows today.
http://www.nnfc.re.kr/eng/U_service/03_equipment_v.jsp?seq=16&gubn=1
When I speak of "mission critical" think of a nuclear power plant or the like where failure means someone will die.

Botching up a batch of chips comes under the umbrella of "acceptable losses."
 

Lestraveled

Joined May 19, 2014
1,946
Lets take an inventory of some key features
- A large company writes a driver that causes a targeted device to malfunction.
- The company used Microsoft to deliver the driver.

Compare the above to
- The United States developed Stuxnet to destroy Iranian centrifuges.
- The united States used Microsoft to deliver the worm.

Gee, how about that.

The final mechanism that got the worm into the classified Iranian LAN is yet to be disclosed.
 

Thread Starter

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,272
When I speak of "mission critical" think of a nuclear power plant or the like where failure means someone will die.

Botching up a batch of chips comes under the umbrella of "acceptable losses."
I need you on my side the next time a VP asks why there was a scrap due to a equipment problem.:D Most of the higher energy machines (1MeV+) are capable of gamma radiation under the right conditions, they are shielded by thick lead plates that handle normal X-rays when in operation but under the right failure modes the software shuts down beam operations (I've seen it a few times) so we don't get cooked as gamma radiation will go through the lead shielding like tissue paper. Then there is the control of highly toxic dopants like Phosphine or Arsine. It's not a nuclear power plant but the potential for harm is real if we lose the control system interfaces but there are usually mechanical fail-safe systems like the big red EMO button that will kill the machine in an instant but still leave potential chemical hazards.
http://www.axcelis.com/sites/default/files/docs/axcelis_safetyconsiderationsimplanter.pdf
 
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