# Entropy, Vacuum, Quantum Gravity. ( by Socratus interpretation the philosophy of phys

Discussion in 'Physics' started by socratus, Oct 2, 2013.

1. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
Entropy, Vacuum, Quantum Gravity. ( by Socratus interpretation the philosophy of physics)
======= .
1.
Henry Poincare named the conception of "entropy "
as a " surprising abstract ".
2.
Lev Landau (Dau) wrote:
" A question about the physical basis of the
entropy monotonous increasing law remains open ".
3
W. Ostwald said :" The entropy is only a shadow of energy.
4.
The famous mathematician John von Neumann said to
"the father of information theory" Claude Shannon:
" Name it "entropy" then in discussions
nobody knows, what "entropy" basically is ".
=============..
1.
Between 1850 - 1865 Rudolf Clausius published a paper
in which he called " The energy conservation law" as
" The first law of thermodynamics". But in our nature the
heat always flows from the higher temperature to the
lower one and never back. In our everyday life we don't see
the heat itself rises from cold to hot. So, it seemed that
in thermodynamics " The energy conservation law"
wasnt kept, this law was broken. But Clausius had another
opinion. He thought: I know people believe that this process is
irreversible, but I am sure that " The energy conservation law"
is universal law and it must be correct also for thermodynamic
process. So, how can I save this law ?
Probably, in the thermodynamic process there is something
that we don't know. Maybe, there is some degradation
of the total energy in the system which never disappears .
Perhaps, there is some non-useful heat, some unseen process ,
some unknown dark energy , some another form of potential
energy/heat itself which can transform heat from the cold
body to the warm one. I will call this conception as " entropy"and
it will mean that changes of entropy (dS) can be calculatedfor reversible
process and may be defined as the ratio of thequantity of energy
taken up (dQ) to the thermodynamictemperature (T),
i.e. dS= dQ /T.
And because I don't know how this process goes I won't call
it as a law but as " The second principle of thermodynamics "
which says that " the entropy of an isolated system always
increases ". Another version: " No process is possible
in which the only result is the transfer of heat from a hotter
to a colder body. It is possible some reversible process which
is unknown now ."
2.
Between 1870 - 1880 Ludwig Boltzmann said:
" Clausius is right. But I can add more to his entropy conception.
First.
According to Classic physics when an isolated thermodynamic
system comes to a thermal equilibrium all particles stop their
moving. From one hand it is correct. But the system cannot be
at thermal equilibrium (in the state of thermo death) all the time.
The situation in the system must change.
Therefore I say that at the thermal equilibrium the entropy
(some unknown dark/potential energy ) of the system will
reach maximum and as a result , the thermal equilibrium
of the system will change.
Second.
I don't know how exactly the thermal equilibrium of the system
changes. But I can give probabilistic / statistical interpretation
of this changing process. I can write " The second principle of
thermodynamics" by a formula: S= k log W and this formula
says:" the entropy ( heat) of the system is the collective result of
mechanical motion and friction of all the particles (k)."
I will call it as " The second law of Thermodynamics."
3
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2. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
3
In 1900 Max Planck said:
Clausius and Boltzmann are both right.
But all my life I worked almost exclusively on problems
related to thermodynamics. And I am sure that the " The second
law of Thermodynamics" , concerning entropy, is deeper and it
says more than is generally accepted. I am sure the Boltzmann's
probabilistic /statistical version of "The second law of
Thermodynamics " is not completed, is not final.
Please, look at the graph of the radiation curves of the " black body".
They are very similar to those curves which are calculated
by Maxwell for the velocity (i.e. energy) distribution of gas
molecules in a closed container. Could this black body radiation
problem be studied in the same way as Maxwell's ideal gas....
...electromagnetic waves ? This problem of connection between
radiation of black body and Maxwell's Electrodynamics theory
doesn't give me peace. Maxwell's theory can tell everything
but nothing about the energy distribution at thermal
equilibrium. What to do? How to be ?
After trying every possible approach using traditional
classical applications of the laws of thermodynamics
I was desperated. And I was forced to consider that the
relation between entropy, Boltzmann's probability version
and Maxwell's theory is possible to solve by suggestion ,
that energy is radiated and absorbed with discrete
individual quanta particle (E= hv). So, now I must write
" The second law of Thermodynamics " by formula:
hv = k log W.
But if I look to the Clausius inequality I see that entropy
is energy divided per temperature.
So the formula hv = klogW is hv = kT logW I think.
I was so surprised and skeptical of such interpretation the
entropy that I spent years trying to explain this result
in another , less revolutionary way. It was difficult for me
to accept this formula and to understand it essence .
It was hard for me to believe in my own discovery.
==================..

3. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
My conclusion.
How to understand this formula?
Which process does formula (hv = kT logW ) describe ?
1.
In 1877 Boltzmann suggested that the energy/mass state
of a physical system (of ideal gas ) could be discreted.
This idea was written with formula: R/N=k. It means:
there are particles with energy/mass state (k) in physical
system of ideal gas . They don't move, they are in the
state of rest.
2.
In 1900 Planck followed Boltzmann's method of dividing.
Planck suggested that energy was radiated and absorbed
with discrete "energy elements" - " quantum of energy"-
- " Planck's action constant"- (h) . This fact means:
electron produces heat, setting in mechanical motion and
friction all particles. This fact is described with Planck's
formula: hv = kTlogW.

3.
In which reference frame does this process take place?
In thermodynamic reference frame of ideal gas and
black body (M. Laue called this model as Kirchhoff 's vacuum).
Now it is considered that these models are abstract ones which
do not exist in nature. On my opinion these models explain
the situation in the real Vacuum (T=0K) very well.
4.
For my opinion the formula (hv = kT logW ) says:
a)
The reason of " entropy" , the source of thermal equilibrium's
fluctuation , the source of Vacuum fluctuation is an action of
the particle /electron, which has energy: E = hv (hf).
b)
The process of Vacuum fluctuation depends on collective
motions of all particles (k) and will be successful if enough
statistical quantity of Boltzmann's particles ( kT logW)
surround the electron.
c)
Which process does the formula (hv = kT logW ) say about ?
This formula describes the possibility of realization of
macro state from micro state. This formula explains
the beginning conditions of gravitation,
the beginning conditions of star formation.
1.
hv = kT logW.
hv > kT logW.
hv < kT.
2.
hv --> He II --> He I --> H -- - > . . . etc

helium II and helium I are very strange elements
Later this system begins to revolve.
And again the revolving helium is very different from all another liquid.
This explanation were given by
P. Kapitza , L. Landau and E .L. Andronikashvili
(Superconductivity)
3.
Plasma reaction... --> Thermonuclear reactions ...-->......etc.

=.

4. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
Thanks to Entropy the homogeneous Vacuum is broken.
Thanks to Entropy the micro process changes into
macro process.
Thanks to Entropy the stars formation takes place.
Thanks to Entropy " the ultraviolet catastrophe" is absent.
Thanks to Entropy our Milky Way doesn't change into radiation.
Thanks to Entropy the process of creating elements takes place.

Thanks to Entropy the process of evolution is going.
e)
Why is " The second law of Thermodynamics" so universal ?
Because it is based on
" The Law of conservation and transformation of energy"
And this law is not the simple accounting solution of debit and credit.
The sense of this law is dipper and it says more than is usually accepted.

===========..
Best wishes.
===

5. ### studiot AAC Fanatic!

Nov 9, 2007
5,005
513
I don't think he said that. I think he said (actually proved mathematically) that the entropy never decreases which is not the same at all.

This is a better translation of

And by the way what point did you wish to discuss?

Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
6. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
Today everybody knows that the Universe had a beginning from 'Big Bang'.
Discussion:
Can the Universe begin to exist from Absolute Vacuum Zero: T=0K?
==..
We have two opinions about vacuum:
1
Paul Dirac wrote:
" The problem of the exact description of vacuum, in my opinion,
is the basic problem now before physics. Really, if you can't correctly
describe the vacuum, how it is possible to expect a correct description
of something more complex? "
2.
The most fundamental question facing 21st century physics will be:
What is the vacuum? As quantum mechanics teaches us, with
its zero point energy this vacuum is not empty and the word
vacuum is a gross misnomer!
/ Prof. Friedwardt Winterberg /
3
Why do physicists refuse to take vacuum as a fundament of Universe?
Book : Dreams of a final theory by Steven Weinberg. Page 138.
 It is true . . . there is such a thing as absolute zero; we cannot
reach temperatures below absolute zero not because we are not
sufficiently clever but because temperatures below absolute zero
simple have no meaning.
/ Steven Weinberg. The Nobel Prize in Physics 1979 /
==.
We need to understand what vacuum is.
=.

Jan 21, 2013
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Mar 26, 2012
267
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9. ### studiot AAC Fanatic!

Nov 9, 2007
5,005
513
If you question was

What is a vacuum?

The concept of a vacuum is perfectly well defined, as a region of space devoid of anything material, or if you wish anything at all.

Unfortunately the Uncertainty Principle in QM does not allow us to point to any region of space and confirm that it is or is not vacuum with 100% certainty.

This apparent dichotomy arises because you wish to isolate one single characteristic (vacuum) from others that also control the behaviour of the physical world.

This cannot be done.

It is a bit like saying in a calculation "ignoring wind resistance" or "ignoring the resistance of the wires".

Sometimes this is justified , sometimes it is not.

10. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
There is Newtonian space and time.
There is Minkowski negative 4D spacetime.
There are 5D, 7D, 11D, . . .. 27D
There are 'open' and 'closed' systems of space and time.
What are characteristics / parameters of your space-time ?
=.

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2013
11. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
I say that vacuum is the system in which 'the others' isolated
particles ( like quantum of light ) exist.
====.

12. ### studiot AAC Fanatic!

Nov 9, 2007
5,005
513
socratus you misunderstood.

By isolate I meant that when you have simultaneous equations, you cannot solve one in isolation.

In the same way when you have several laws controlling a system it has to remain within the set of options that satisfy all the laws together. You cannot take one law and say it allows one parameter of the system to take on some value X if that value is forbidden by other laws within the system.

13. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
If we take system of absolute vacuum zero and
its parameter: T=0K, what is possible to say about it?
Are there laws that forbid such system?
Can T=0K be real system?
If T=0K is real system, then how can existence
be born from such condition?

===.

14. ### studiot AAC Fanatic!

Nov 9, 2007
5,005
513
Yes, it is called zero point energy.

However your formulation is too vague to apply the UP to.

15. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3

Today everybody knows that the Universe had a beginning from 'Big Bang'.
As result of 'Big Bang' the temperature in universe is now T=2,7 . . . .
.. . .and this T=2,7 every second goes down to . . . T=0K.
When the universe reach the T=0K we will be all died. . .
but thanks to the ENTROPY it will not allow this.
===

16. ### Wendy Moderator

Mar 24, 2008
20,766
2,536
I love that statement, I am not arguing the statement itself, but science is full of examples where everybody knew something.

An old quote from Mark Twain:

17. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
In the end of the 19th century many physicists ( Lord Kelvin,
J. J. Thomson, Philipp von Jolly ) pronounced that
science wasn't worth studying because all the big questions
and " there are only twolittlecloudsin the sky ofphysics "
These "two little clouds" are nothing else than the theory
of relativity and quantum theory.
And these two clouds still now covered the sky of physics.

18. ### rc3po Member

Feb 12, 2014
56
1
That's true - which begs the question: "Why use zero(0)?"
If I ask you how many apples are on the table and you look and see that there are none, you would correctly say, "There are zero(none) apples on the table."
However, when we deviate from the mundane and enter the quantum realm or into space/time, we know that there is no such thing as, "nothing".
Therefore, if we use (zero), then we must at least give it a charge. Since "nothing" doesn't exist, zero must be either +0, or -0.

19. ### socratus Thread Starter Member

Mar 26, 2012
267
3
a) According to Classic physics the thermodynamic zone of T=0K is dead-zone.
b) According to Quantum physics the thermodynamic structure of T=0K isn't
dead-zone, because some kind of "virtual particles" exist in this "cold kingdom".
The problems:
We don't know:
a) what to do with the physical parameter T=0K and
b) we don't know the concrete parameters of the Dirac's negative
"virtual particles": -E=Mc^2.
c) these negative "virtual particles" (-E=Mc^2 ) somehow
(through vacuum fluctuation / polarization ) can change into real particle,
but the mechanism of this transformation is unknown.
====.
P.S.
According to Dirac:
Sometimes E=Mc^2 can be negative, sometimes E=Mc^2 can be positive.
=.