electrostatic current

Discussion in 'Physics' started by static ore, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. static ore

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 3, 2009
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    Gentlemen/Ladies:

    Many years ago I had to enroll in a course in Basic Electrostatics. requirement and such. Anyway most everything fell in place, but as the years mounted so did my feeble memory oppose and forget.

    Now am returning to the subject and I ( as before ) am having trouble trying to visually current ( I ) with voltage ( E ) . Yes, I am aware of microamps and such, but what I am after is the accumulation of amperes like say, ten or twenty or even thirty to go with the electrostatic voltage that is induced from said aatmosphere. I am retired from electrical contruction, so am not unwise to the lethal results that I am pursuing.

    Anybody out there have any suggestions as to how to acquire these high amps within an electrostatic environment ?

    Yes, I have read and built some of Teslas' and Moores' material and projects.

    Sincerely, static ore
     
  2. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    Electrostatic current is by definition an oxymoron. Electrostaic "anything" requires stationary charges. Current requires moving charges. So you can't have it both ways. Try asking your question in a different way. Like how much current is in a lightning stike that goes from one cloud to another?
     
  3. thatoneguy

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 19, 2009
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    Boiled down, it sounds like you want to combine these two types:

    "Electrostatic" very high voltages and low current. e.g. Van De Graaf, Shoes on carpet, lightning.

    Magnetic conduction produce high current with low voltage. e.g. Faraday Disc aka monopolar generator.

    If you find yourself surrounded by several hundred thousand volts AND Thousands of amps, you are near a Hydroelectric Dam.

    It sounds like you want to experiment the way Faraday and Tesla did, by measuring current and voltage with a ruler rather than a meter. I can respect that, it's fun! (As you said, If you follow safety precautions, and have a clue)

    Seriously, I'm not sure what is handy to provide the voltage and current you are looking to play with outside of a "repurposed" power generation unit.
     
  4. static ore

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 3, 2009
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    Papabravo:

    Understood, current is a movable factor, but you cannot say that electrostatic charges do not move. Most instances they do move, albeit rather slowly, but they do move. However, you are nor answering my question, is there any way for normal electrical current to combine with an electrostatic charge?

    S/ore
     
  5. static ore

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 3, 2009
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    Thatoneguy: Repurposed understood; now give me your supposition as to a generator combination of electrostatic current.

    S/ore
     
  6. davebee

    Well-Known Member

    Oct 22, 2008
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    Do you mean that you'd like to accumulate a large quantity of charge?

    You can do that by connecting a charge pump like a Van de Graaff generator or a Wimshurst machine to a large capacitor such as Leyden jar.

    If you really do mean Amperes, then tyou can discharge the capacitor and release the charge in a short high-ampere burst.

    Do you have any particular experiment or demonstration in mind?
     
  7. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    If the charges move at all, even very slowly, it is not electrostatic -- it is electrodynamic. Learning the terminology aids comprehension and avoids the supposition that you might be clueless.

    It is the motion of the charges that brings Maxwells Equations into play: moving charges create magnetic fields, and changing magnetic fields create electric fierlds, and changing electric fields create magnetic fields.
     
  8. thatoneguy

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 19, 2009
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    There are electrostatic voltage generators, such as the Van De Graaf, but for anything related to "Luidcrous Power", It is a coil/wire generation unit on the scale of Tesla's Laboratory at Westingouse, or Sandia National Labs. High voltage generators, usually at a higher frequency to save transformer weight/size, and large conductors.

    The problem for a hobbyist is that you need to be inside a shielded building, as the arcs are extremely disruptive to the electrical grid and communications systems. An electrostatic voltage of hundreds of thousands of volts isn't an issue, until a path to ground is available, at which point the voltage potential becomes current, either through an intentional conductor, such as copper, or ionized air, or all the above and some extra as other paths are availalbe. When that current is over milliamp levels, you end up in the realm of things only the government gets to play with. One example is the Z Machine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_machine
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2009
  9. static ore

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 3, 2009
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    Bravo and Guy: Thanks for your input. I'll peruse for a bit. As to where I am headed - later - for now! S/ore
     
  10. static ore

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 3, 2009
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    You forgot to steer me to the posts of Nirvana on 9-04-06 ( 2 parts )
     
  11. static ore

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 3, 2009
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    Davebee: In regards to your question about any particular experiment in mind, still on the same search, maybe you can come up with an answer to this. Every natlural material has its' own charge ( + or - ). However, is there a way to find and use a specific charge to differentiate one metal from another ? For instance, separating - say tin ore from cinnaber or silver from lead or copper from zinc, Any ideas ? Anybody else, maybe. Sure could use some ideas or actual methods. S/Ore
     
  12. Papabravo

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    Feb 24, 2006
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    I wouldn't think so. Each of the metals in column I of the periodic table has 1 valence electron and is elctrically neutral. If the valence electron is stripped then the remaining ion has a charge of +1. It is the same +1 for each element in column I. You might get some traction from the energy required to ionize a particular element. The efficient method of element identification is spectroscopy. That's how elements of distant stars are identified.
     
  13. thatoneguy

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 19, 2009
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    I'm not sure, but I think he is referring to when rubbing glass with silk vs rubbing amber with fur. The glass "becomes positive" charged, the amber attains a "net negative" charge.
     
  14. Papabravo

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    Feb 24, 2006
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    Great, except glass, silk, amber, and fur are not metals. At least they weren't metals the last time I checked.
     
  15. thatoneguy

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    Feb 19, 2009
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    I actually have no idea what he meant, but those are the only common examples of "positive and negative" charged materials that I know of. Metals, as you said, have the same charge.

    Posted only for clarification from Static, as a response to you.
     
  16. gregdevid

    Member

    Feb 4, 2009
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    Hi Friend,

    Electrostatics deals with charges, potentials, and the like where things aren't changing, i.e. they're static. Basic principles of electrostatics are used all the time in high voltage work for a lot of reasons. Popular high voltage generators like the Van de Graaf are based on electrostatic principles (even though a current is flowing). The burning question in a lot of high voltage work is whether the system will electrically breakdown as the voltage is raised. This is generally a question of quasi-static potential gradients which can be answered by simple electrostatics.


    Thanks,


    Parkar
     
  17. static ore

    Thread Starter Member

    Mar 3, 2009
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    Okay Gentlemen: You all have something to offer, and I do appreciate. To elucidate just a bit more, ( still doing my homework ), I think what I am reaching for is to differentiate frequencies ( I hope that is the correct word ) of metals so that it is possible to separate metals from each other. I have been delving into Cottrells work and evolved some answers there, but I have to find a way to separate one metal from another for further processing. Leaching is out as the toxicity is lethal. Well, at last look I still have my hair. There is nothing more gagging than chlorine when the wind changes, and hydrazine is the most finicky stuff on this planet. Anyway, that is it up to date. That is why I have been playing around with electrostatics. One of you mentioned a VandeGraff. You should see the million volt baby built back in the thirties that had to be contained under pressure with inert gases to stabilize it. Boy, I'd like to have been around that one. S/Ore
     
  18. davebee

    Well-Known Member

    Oct 22, 2008
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    Static Ore, I've never heard of anything like that. Searching around, the closest thing I've found is a machine that uses charge to separate conductive materials from insulating materials, but I've never heard of a technique that can separate different metals simply based on charge. But then my expertise on the matter consists of about 5 minutes of searching Google.

    From what you've said so far, I don't think frequency is the term you're referrring to. Ionization potential, or energy, or work function of a solid, refers to the energy needed to strip an electron from the material, ionizing it.

    Different metals have different ionization energies, so I suppose the possibility exists that this property could be used to separate dissimilar metals, but as far as I can tell, a machine that uses this to separate metals has not yet been invented.
     
  19. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    I think the chances of this investigation being a complete waste of time are large.
     
  20. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
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    Try the search terms "electrostatic drum separator" in a web search.
    Try the search terms "electrostatic drum separator" in a web search.
     
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