electric powered boats

alfacliff

Joined Dec 13, 2013
2,458
the main advantage of a 400 hz motor is weight. thats why they were used in airplanes. I have carryed a 35 hp motor to a machine to install, fluuid cooled, up to 10,000 rpm, high torque at all speeds from 0 (positioning) to 10krpm. just because a motor is rated at 400 hz dosnt mean it has to be ran at 400 hz, thats what the vfd is for.
 

Thread Starter

Jay Bliss

Joined Jan 24, 2015
19
the main advantage of a 400 hz motor is weight. thats why they were used in airplanes. I have carryed a 35 hp motor to a machine to install, fluuid cooled, up to 10,000 rpm, high torque at all speeds from 0 (positioning) to 10krpm. just because a motor is rated at 400 hz dosnt mean it has to be ran at 400 hz, thats what the vfd is for.
Thanks for that info. I was unaware of those facts. Yes, weight is a prime consideration; the ebay 400Hz motor looked lightweight. On the other hand, the spindle motor Strantor suggests looks even lighter yet; clearly it'd need a reduction gear....
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
BIG numbers!! 18000 rpm, $2000!!! 'taint cheap. keeps me thinking
No, this isn't going to be cheap, no matter what route you take. If you can't budget the $2k for that bottom barrel Chinese compromise of a spindle setup, then forget about 400hz or any AC, BLDC, etc. If cheap is your first priority then Your best bet would be a brushed DC motor, like ETEK, Agni, Motoenergy, et. al. (At the expense of efficiency) And a DC controller from the likes of kelly (at the expense of MORE efficiency). Beware those kelly controllers are not properly equipped with transistor modules; to Save money they parallel a bunch a tiny transistors. They are known to fail catastrophically even when used within their specd range. Plenty pics of exploded kelly controllers on the interwebs. Get one rated way more than you need, to be safe.
 

ronv

Joined Nov 12, 2008
3,770
Yes, might get a better payback from batteries rather than trying to get a couple percent in the motor.
Batteries, now there is real money!
 

Thread Starter

Jay Bliss

Joined Jan 24, 2015
19
Ronv, thanks, I was able to get from a wrecking yard a Leaf battery belly, and I'm happy with those LiMnO4 cells.
Strantor, I haven't been impressed with the BLDC motors: noisy, AND you noted an overheat creates a boat anchor mighty fast.

The spindle motors would appear to provide less torque. Are they neudymium magnets? There were other spindle motor/vfd combos -- lower Kw--for $500. Is the one you spec'd a particularly good one?

Where might a Heinzmann 120 or 150 PMS fit in your esteemed opinion?
http://www.heinzmann.com/en/electric-motors-and-hybrid-drives/pancake/synchronous-motor
As always, thank you
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
Where might a Heinzmann 120 or 150 PMS fit in your esteemed opinion?
http://www.heinzmann.com/en/electric-motors-and-hybrid-drives/pancake/synchronous-motor
As always, thank you
That's a fine example of what I'm talking about here:
What can I get my hands on as a consumer with no commercial accounts?
That company has no MSRP listed for their motors, no web store, or even a list of distributors who sell their products. They have one contact in America. Good luck getting them to sell you one of their motors. In order for them to sell to you, you probably have to set up a commercial account with them with net payment terms and several commercial credit references. The motor you want probably doesn't exist until you order it; then they make it. But they don't make just it; they make it, plus the other 999 motors that you ordered just like it, because as an OEM who is putting these things into production electric boats, you are able to meet their minimum order quota. Oh, wait, you're not? Well then, tough titty.

You're welcome to contact them and ask for pricing on a motor. Try and prove me wrong; I hope you do. Then I will know of a new source of awesome motors at my disposal. But I've seen it enough to know by the website. Those motors really do look ideal; exactly what you want.
The spindle motors would appear to provide less torque. Are they neudymium magnets?
Did I link to permanent magnet motor? sorry.
There were other spindle motor/vfd combos -- lower Kw--for $500. Is the one you spec'd a particularly good one?
I have no idea, but probably not at that price. You want to see how much a particularly good one costs, check out siemens, parker, yaskawa, mitsubishi.
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
This guy said heinzmann sells the pms120 for 1950 euros ($2200). Not sure how he got it; maybe ask him? but anyway, he says the controller for it is another 1200 euros ($1354).
 

Thread Starter

Jay Bliss

Joined Jan 24, 2015
19
That's a fine example of what I'm talking about here:

That company has no MSRP listed for their motors, no web store, or even a list of distributors who sell their products. They have one contact in America. Good luck getting them to sell you one of their motors. In order for them to sell to you, you probably have to set up a commercial account with them with net payment terms and several commercial credit references. The motor you want probably doesn't exist until you order it; then they make it. But they don't make just it; they make it, plus the other 999 motors that you ordered just like it, because as an OEM who is putting these things into production electric boats, you are able to meet their minimum order quota. Oh, wait, you're not? Well then, tough titty.

You're welcome to contact them and ask for pricing on a motor. Try and prove me wrong; I hope you do. Then I will know of a new source of awesome motors at my disposal. But I've seen it enough to know by the website. Those motors really do look ideal; exactly what you want.

Did I link to permanent magnet motor? sorry. NOPE< you didn't but my ignorance did....

I have no idea, but probably not at that price. You want to see how much a particularly good one costs, check out siemens, parker, yaskawa, mitsubishi.
Strantor, you're a wizard. Thank you for those perceptive common sense statements.
 
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Thread Starter

Jay Bliss

Joined Jan 24, 2015
19
Strantor, you're a wizard. Thank you for those perceptive common sense statements.
Without much help from Heinzmann, other than the access they gave me to download, I've bit into their product. It's everything Strantor described. Sometimes electronics are forgiving, and in this case I didn't burn out anything when I attached phase wires to the wrong terminals on the controller.
If you're looking for a 2Kw motor, 48 volts, I can vouch for this vendor and product
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151585343382?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
That's cool. Just curious, how will you now choose a screw? I assume you will use an open prop as opposed to a jet?
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
Without much help from Heinzmann, other than the access they gave me to download, I've bit into their product. It's everything Strantor described. Sometimes electronics are forgiving, and in this case I didn't burn out anything when I attached phase wires to the wrong terminals on the controller.
If you're looking for a 2Kw motor, 48 volts, I can vouch for this vendor and product
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151585343382?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Thanks for the heads up and checking back in. But 2KW? I gotta ask, isn't that like 25% of the power you were after? How many did you buy?
 

Thread Starter

Jay Bliss

Joined Jan 24, 2015
19
That's cool. Just curious, how will you now choose a screw? I assume you will use an open prop as opposed to a jet?
Yes, open prop. I'm contemplating an arrangement like this
http://www.copperheadmudmotors.com/
And contemplating that because I'll probably want to alter speeds. The Heinzmann has a banshee wail above 2000 rpm. Prop selection will be long and arduous and cheap and I'll take lots of notes.
 
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Thread Starter

Jay Bliss

Joined Jan 24, 2015
19
Thanks for the heads up and checking back in. But 2KW? I gotta ask, isn't that like 25% of the power you were after? How many did you buy?
Actually I have 2, and one is the 2.0kW you see on ebay. The other is 5.5kW--same size, weight, controller is same. Amps on the motors are 49 and 141 respectively. 48v. And wire sizes are the same on the phase leads.
Which leads to another question: perhaps in the photo you can see two separate sets of phase wires coming out from either side of the motor housing. Each pair then bolts to the controller uvw terminals. With outrunner motors, one can alter the length of the phase leads. Can I do that here, AND even put a y connector to join two sides of the same phase, and then run a single heavier wire down to the controller? As Strantor pointed out, I get no access to their technical dept.

I did initially screw up mightily and followed RC guidelines, wired the phases in no order, but did pair them properly. Motor wires are numbered, phases on the controller are lettered. Dumbass here didn't figure that a W is really a 3, and that's where the number three wires go. Anyway, nothing burned up or out, and everything seems to run OK.

Heinzman does grant access to programming downloads. That'll be another step down the road. Your help/comments are much appreciated, 4mites.
 

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Thread Starter

Jay Bliss

Joined Jan 24, 2015
19
Hi Jay,

With focus on your technical requirement (light) these motors have very high power density, so you may find these of interest.
In another 7 years they might be on eBay! Pretty fantastic, especially the Launchpoint Tech motor. Thanks.
 
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