Hello again,

Oh sorry, i must have been reading too fast or something.
Please follow me on this. I think i wrote everything correctly but you can go over it.

Let's put another small resistor in series with R in the bottom lead, call it Rs.
Let's also reverse the red arrow for a minute, so it is pointing down.
With conventional current flow we assume that positive charge is flowing, and
since the resistor draws current from the battery, the flow will be down through
both resistors, so we have positive charge entering the top of Rs so the top
must be positive and that makes the bottom negative.
The voltage measured across Rs will be positive with the plus meter lead on top
of Rs and the minus lead on the bottom of Rs. The meter reads a positive
voltage therefore the current is positive.

Now let's put the red arrow back to pointing upwards. The current doesnt actually
change, just the arrow, and since we still have current flowing down through both
resistors, we still see a positive voltage at the top of Rs and since the flow is
now opposite to the red arrow, we have to state Io as being negative as in the
actual drawing.

Now let's assume electron current flow, which goes from the most negative to the
most positive, and leave the red arrow as it appears in the drawing.
The current flows up through both resistors, and since it is negative charge
that enters the bottom of Rs resistor first, the bottom must be more negative
than the top, the meter reads a positive voltage again. This time however
the current is in the same direction as the arrow, and since it is negative
charge flowing we must conclude that the current Io is negative.

Note that to read the current directly with the volt meter across Rs we would
actually have to reverse the meter leads because Io is drawn pointing up.

Summary:
In the first case we had positive charge moving in the negative direction so
the current as shown by Io was negative.
In the second case we had negative charge moving in the positive direction,
so the current as shown by Io was negative.

Simplification:
Since we never changed anything we should expect similar results no matter
how we think about the charges, positive or negative, as the two systems
are compatible. And it is really the job of the physicist to figure out what is actually
happening inside the wire, ie wave theory.

 

Correct. Now go look in the E-book, for instance,

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-2/voltage-current-resistance-relate/

or look at any of the posts (including the TS) that want to use electron current (which is what the TS is trying to do whether he recognizes it or not) and they will maintain that the current Io, according to the electron current convention, is +9 mA because electron current is in the "true" direction that charge flows. But that is because they can't distinguish between the flow of charge carries and the flow of charge carried by those charge carriers.

In the circuits on that E-book page, the currents should be I = -4 A and -9 A, respectively, because the electrons are carrying a current of -4 coulombs (and -9 coulombs) in that direction every second. So, like I've been saying for decades, the people that insist on using electron current don't ever (almost universally ever) do it correctly and consistently. As a result, they end up having to throw around magical mystery minus signs right and left.

 

Is there a situation where you can have positive charge flow, without negative charge flow?

Isn't positive charge flow just a mirror or reflection (apparent result) of negative charge flow?

Shouldn't the physical dynamic have priority in physics?

The word flow implies physical movement, not field balance.

Current and electricity should be define as electron flow. Because the physical electron movement causes both charge results.

 

Is there a situation where you can have positive charge flow, without negative charge flow?

Isn't positive charge flow just a mirror or reflection (apparent result) of negative charge flow?

Shouldn't the physical dynamic have priority in physics?

The word flow implies physical movement, not field balance.

Current and electricity should be define as electron flow. Because the physical electron movement causes both charge results.

FINE!!!!! Define it as electron flow! IT DOESN'T MATTER!!! In EITHER case the current in that last circuit I provided is -9 mA. They are the SAME!!!

 

Correct. Now go look in the E-book, for instance,

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-2/voltage-current-resistance-relate/

or look at any of the posts (including the TS) that want to use electron current (which is what the TS is trying to do whether he recognizes it or not) and they will maintain that the current Io, according to the electron current convention, is +9 mA because electron current is in the "true" direction that charge flows. But that is because they can't distinguish between the flow of charge carries and the flow of charge carried by those charge carriers.

In the circuits on that E-book page, the currents should be I = -4 A and -9 A, respectively, because the electrons are carrying a current of -4 coulombs (and -9 coulombs) in that direction every second. So, like I've been saying for decades, the people that insist on using electron current don't ever (almost universally ever) do it correctly and consistently. As a result, they end up having to throw around magical mystery minus signs right and left.

- " But that is because they can't distinguish between the flow of charge carries and the flow of charge carried by those charge carriers."
I can tell the difference. I just don't see why proton charge can flow or do anything without the electron flow FIRST being the one making it to or HOW it (proton charge) could do anything or flow anywhere WITHOUT something to carry it to. And how it is taken to the maximum step further of calling it the " ELECTRIC CURRENT ".

 

- " But that is because they can't distinguish between the flow of charge carries and the flow of charge carried by those charge carriers."
I can tell the difference. I just don't see why proton charge can flow or do anything without the electron flow FIRST being the one making it to or HOW it (proton charge) could do anything or flow anywhere WITHOUT something to carry it to. And how it is taken to the maximum step further of calling it the " ELECTRIC CURRENT ".

No one has said that protons are flowing (in the case of electrical current in a wire). No one.

 

Positive charge has a symmetry balance, but not a flow.

 

No one has said that protons are flowing (in the case of electrical current in a wire). No one.

-Neither did I.

p.s. No proton flow = no positive charge carrier flow = no positive charge flow WITHOUT the electron flow. Electron Flow(electric current) " pushing/bumping/moving itself " FIRST, and then " push/bump/move " positive charge in opposite direction. Is that incorrect.

 

P.s. what I just realized is I still don't see how positive charge in the wire can do or go anywhere without it's carrier to " carry " it along.

 

Correct. Now go look in the E-book, for instance,

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-2/voltage-current-resistance-relate/

or look at any of the posts (including the TS) that want to use electron current (which is what the TS is trying to do whether he recognizes it or not) and they will maintain that the current Io, according to the electron current convention, is +9 mA because electron current is in the "true" direction that charge flows. But that is because they can't distinguish between the flow of charge carries and the flow of charge carried by those charge carriers.

In the circuits on that E-book page, the currents should be I = -4 A and -9 A, respectively, because the electrons are carrying a current of -4 coulombs (and -9 coulombs) in that direction every second. So, like I've been saying for decades, the people that insist on using electron current don't ever (almost universally ever) do it correctly and consistently. As a result, they end up having to throw around magical mystery minus signs right and left.

- " the flow of charge carries and the flow of charge carried by those charge carriers. "
Is there a typo in there, or is it just me.

 

Let's mix blue and yellow..............we get green. Now remove the yellow.
What we have left is called blue flow. Taking away the yellow is ignored.
Even though we took the yellow,.....the result was that we added the blue.
This is how they think.

False equalities + false dynamics + false frames of reference = modern science.

Get it?

 

Let's mix blue and yellow..............we get green. Now remove the yellow.
What we have left is called blue flow. Taking away the yellow is ignored.
Even though we took the yellow,.....the result was that we added the blue.
This is how they think.

False equalities + false dynamics + false frames of reference = modern science.

Get it?

- But it's making my life a living hell! I have to deal with this phenomenon of " Electricity " on Day-to-Day basis so I can survive. And all these errors are making it near impossible to understand it. And I wouldn't care so much if it was all a honest mistake like Ben Franklin did, but this almost seems like it's done with full blown malicious intent![/QUOTE]

 

Negative electron charges flow from negative towards positive outside a battery.
Negative electron charges flow from positive towards negative inside a battery.

 

Generally, all you have to remember is which way to put the probes of the meter and conventional current goes from + to negative.

Unless your dealing with (chemistry - e.g. electroplating, electrolysis etc), thermionic emission, electron beams or solid state physics don't worry about it. I've had to deal with all of these.

 

-Neither did I.

p.s. No proton flow = no positive charge carrier flow = no positive charge flow WITHOUT the electron flow. Electron Flow(electric current) " pushing/bumping/moving itself " FIRST, and then " push/bump/move " positive charge in opposite direction. Is that incorrect.

The positive charges in a wire do not move anywhere. The positive charges are in the atomic nuclei which are bound in position and don't move (in any meaningful way on the scale being discussed here). The ONLY charges that move are the negative charges associated with the electrons.

 

P.s. what I just realized is I still don't see how positive charge in the wire can do or go anywhere without it's carrier to " carry " it along.

The carrier for positive charge is the proton (in this discussion) and it doesn't go anywhere during normal electrical conduction in a wire. The only reason that electrical conduction occurs in a wire or other conductor in the first place is because the electrons are only loosely bound to the nuclei -- instead of belonging to a particular atom, they belong to the entire collection of atoms (i.e., the wire) as a whole.

 

- " the flow of charge carries and the flow of charge carried by those charge carriers. "
Is there a typo in there, or is it just me.

Yes, there's a typo. It should read, "the flow of charge carriers and the flow of charge carried by those charge carriers."

 

The positive charges in a wire do not move anywhere. The positive charges are in the atomic nuclei which are bound in position and don't move (in any meaningful way on the scale being discussed here). The ONLY charges that move are the negative charges associated with the electrons.

- 1) " The positive charges in a wire do not move anywhere. "
2) " The ONLY charges that move are the negative charges associated with the electrons "

so then BECAUSE of that reason right there #2, Electron Current should be rightfully called ELECTRIC CURRENT if ELECTRIC CURRENT is " defined " as the flow of charge.
Regardless if it's positive or negative. In the wire, it's the only one moving ANY charge around. Is this incorrect to say.

 

Yes, there's a typo. It should read, "the flow of charge carriers and the flow of charge carried by those charge carriers."

- Great of you to clear that up.

 

The positive charges in a wire do not move anywhere. The positive charges are in the atomic nuclei which are bound in position and don't move (in any meaningful way on the scale being discussed here). The ONLY charges that move are the negative charges associated with the electrons.

- " The positive charges in a wire do not move anywhere "
I did not know that. I had my suspicions though.