It is well past the point for us to accept that the TS is either not interested in learning anything (i.e., is just trolling) or is incapable of learning anything. In either event, further discussion (with him) is a waste of time.

-Probably the latter, I hope. And if the majority of everyone here agrees with you, then this is goodbye.

 

Physics should be a mathematics free zone.

and Opera would be a lot better without the singing.

It's very easy to say such nonsense behind a keyboard using electronic and electrical systems based on electromagnetic theory developed by people with mathematics over a century ago.

Another one of those analogies:
"You may enjoy and appreciate Bach without learning to read music; but to PLAY Bach, and to gain the deepest understanding of his works, you must study music theory."

 

and Opera would be a lot better without the singing.

I actually, kinda agree with that one!

 

What you keep dancing around, but won't deal with, is what is the electrical current in the connecting wire in amperes?

If you want to point the reference current in the direction that electrons actually flow, that's perfectly fine. But the current that is flowing in that direction is NEGATIVE!

Consider the following circuit:

View attachment 107918

If you want to use electron current instead of conventional current, fine. What is Io, in amperes?

Hello again,

I thought i made it clear that it doesnt matter which way we look at it, in theory. So if we have positive charge of a certain amount in a certain time flowing from left to right and we measure 1 amp, if we had negative charge flowing from right to left we have negative charge flowing in the opposite direction, so we still have 1 amp and it's not negative.
That's just basic circuit theory though. Stick an ammeter in the circuit and it will always measure 1 amp, or stick a resistor in the circuit and measure the voltage across it and use Ohm's Law to measure the current, it's always +1 amp.
The basic circuit rule is, positive charge moving in the positive direction is the same as negative charge moving in the negative direction, in theory.
If we for some reason declare that a number of electrons in a given direction will be the standard, then we have just adopted the opposite direction standard because now electron flow is in the positive direction, and although that makes the current negative then positive charge flowing in the opposite direction must be negative too because now the direction of positive charge will be in the negative direction. I dont see any good reason to adopt that standard though.

 

To MrAl:
Would you look at reply #42, #51, #55 and give your opinion about what I am " incapable of learning " in there

 

If we for some reason declare that a number of electrons in a given direction will be the standard, then we have just adopted the opposite direction standard because now electron flow is in the positive direction, and although that makes the current negative then positive charge flowing in the opposite direction must be negative too because now the direction of positive charge will be in the negative direction. I dont see any good reason to adopt that standard though.

Ah, I didn't read closely enough. This is correct -- and is NOT what all of the electron flow people do. They define the direction that electrons actually flow in as the positive direction and then use a positive value for the current, in amperes, when electrons are flowing in that direction.

 

To MrAl:
Would you look at reply #42, #51, #55 and give your opinion about what I am " incapable of learning " in there

Hello again,

I dont see you being incapable, not sure why you would say that. Is it because someone else told you that you were? If so, maybe it is because this topic can be a little confusing for everyone at first.

Protons can constitute an electric current in some mediums that allow them to move, but you seem to have it right for wire where they cant really move because they are stuck inside an atom that can not move, unlike the outer electrons, which can move from atom to atom.

I think what happened in this thread though is that some people are talking about pure theory and others (like myself) are talking about absolute physical reality. Theory defines things in the simplest way possible so we might find that the exact way it is worded doesnt actually happen in real life in all circumstances, although the effect of what it is declaring to be true DOES actually happen. So we have the root cause and the effect, and sometimes the theory will mention just the effect so as to make it easier to comprehend and use in everyday life. Let me pose a somewhat comical but true analogy.

A chair is something we sit on. If we move a chair from one room to the other, we say that the chair actually moved. What we DONT say is that the room moved but if we only had to deal with chairs and rooms we might be able to get away with stating that the empty room moved, not the chair, especially if both rooms were EXACTLY the same. Well, that's how the flow of charge is sometimes defined, that the room moved, but we might also note that the theory never denies the fact that another type of charge exists, it just elects not to mention it. This means we can use positive charge to reason out the EFFECT of moving charge, even though it may not be positive charge actually moving in every case. If we didnt do something like that, we would have to define other types of charges and what they do too. So it makes the theory simpler, even though it may cause confusion sometimes.

The rough statement of the electrical theory in terms of the chair and the two rooms:
"Current is the movement of rooms, and current in units of the unit current is a certain fixed number of rooms moving past a given point in unit time".
Note we still get the same effect as if the chairs were moving.

Kind of funny to think of it that way

 

It has nothing to do with "pure theory" claiming that the room is moving.

If the chair is a carrier, then what is the polarity of what it is carrying? Let's say that the chair is carrying a bucket containing negative money (i.e., checks to be drawn upon the account in the other room). If twenty chairs, each carrying a check for $10, moved into the other room, how much money moved into that room? Simple.

Net money = (20 chairs)*(-$10/chair) = -$200

No were has anyone made any claim that the room moved. But the chairs moved a negative amount of money into the room.

 

It has nothing to do with "pure theory" claiming that the room is moving.

If the chair is a carrier, then what is the polarity of what it is carrying? Let's say that the chair is carrying a bucket containing negative money (i.e., checks to be drawn upon the account in the other room). If twenty chairs, each carrying a check for $10, moved into the other room, how much money moved into that room? Simple.

Net money = (20 chairs)*(-$10/chair) = -$200

-You're the troll around here, not me.

No were has anyone made any claim that the room moved. But the chairs moved a negative amount of money into the room.

 

Is this another Billy Mayo re-incarnation? Sure seems like it.

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.

 

Is this another Billy Mayo re-incarnation? Sure seems like it.

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.

It's possible. I wasn't around for the original Billy Mayo saga and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt -- but that doubt CAN be removed and I'm pretty close to that point.

 

Is this another Billy Mayo re-incarnation? Sure seems like it.

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.

- Big talk for someone who didn't put any effort or time into this thread, at least this guy had a pair.

 

Let's see: You (Mac Rodriguez) joined March 2016 and know the history of Billy Mayo?

 

Let's see: You (Mac Rodriguez) joined March 2016 and know the history of Billy Mayo?

Super-lurker extraordinaire, perhaps?

 

Let's see: You (Mac Rodriguez) joined March 2016 and know the history of Billy Mayo?

-What are you talking about.
If you are saying that i " know the history " of Mr Mayonase or whatever then you are obviously confused.
Comment #72 was TO WBahn.

 

Super-lurker extraordinaire, perhaps?

- You must be very familiar with that type of behavior. Take's one to know one, I always say.

 

It has nothing to do with "pure theory" claiming that the room is moving.

If the chair is a carrier, then what is the polarity of what it is carrying? Let's say that the chair is carrying a bucket containing negative money (i.e., checks to be drawn upon the account in the other room). If twenty chairs, each carrying a check for $10, moved into the other room, how much money moved into that room? Simple.

Net money = (20 chairs)*(-$10/chair) = -$200

No were has anyone made any claim that the room moved. But the chairs moved a negative amount of money into the room.

Hello again,

Sorry but you seem to still be mixing up theory with reality. Due to that there is nothing i can say that will show you why this doesnt always work. Yes theory works, we always knew that, but if you accept theory as reality then there will be times when it doesnt do you any good. I would quote some references, but you will probably reject them too. So all i can do is wish you good luck with the theory and also with your other endeavors in the future.

 

Hello again,

Sorry but you seem to still be mixing up theory with reality. Due to that there is nothing i can say that will show you why this doesnt always work. Yes theory works, we always knew that, but if you accept theory as reality then there will be times when it doesnt do you any good. I would quote some references, but you will probably reject them too. So all i can do is wish you good luck with the theory and also with your other endeavors in the future.

How am I mixing up theory and reality?!

You have already (as near as I can tell) agreed that the current flowing in the direction of the electrons is a negative current (when expressed in amperes). Have you not? What more is there to it?

 

How am I mixing up theory and reality?!

You have already (as near as I can tell) agreed that the current flowing in the direction of the electrons is a negative current (when expressed in amperes). Have you not? What more is there to it?

Hi,

I am happy to see that you narrowed it down a little here with one issue at a time. It's so hard sometimes to talk about something that involves a whole bunch of issues at once.

I guess i did not make my points clear enough, that's the only explanation, because i know from reading your other posts that you are a very knowledgeable person.
When i said that "A positive charge moving from left to right is the same as a negative charge moving from right to left" what i meant is that we cant, nor do we usually want to, be able to tell the difference with any measurement including the polarity of the current.

That means that when we insert an ammeter into the circuit and we have positive charge moving left to right we measure current of say +2 amps, but if instead we had negative charge moving right to left we would still measure +2 amps.
Let me state the four cases using 2 amps magnitude as example:
1. Positive charge moving left to right, +2 amps.
2. Negative charge moving right to left, +2 amps.
3. Positive charge moving right to left, -2 amps.
4. Negative charge moving left to right, -2 amps.

To put it another way, say we can see the movement of any charge in a wire at one specific point along the wire length. There are a lot of possibilities so i'll just mention a few...
1. If we see a positive charge move left to right past the test point, then see another positive charge move left to right, we have a net charge of 2 units.
2. If we see one positive charge move left to right, then see one positive charge move right to left, we have a net charge of zero.
3. If we see a positive charge move left to right, then see a negative charge move left to right, we have a net charge of zero.
4. If we see a positive charge move left to right, then see a negative charge move right to left, we have a net charge of 2 units.

The most obvious though i think is when we put an ammeter into the wire it doesnt matter what convention we use we always measure the same polarity. If we have it connected properly then we see the expected polarity. That polarity however does not change just because we decide to use electron current flow instead of positive charge flow.

The chair/room analogy was just meant to show that sometimes we cant tell what moved, and sometimes it doesnt matter what moved if we get the same effect.
A simpler example is say two buckets and one baseball. If we see the baseball in the bucket to the right, then later we look again and see the baseball in the bucket to the left, did the baseball move into the other bucket, or did the empty bucket swing around the bucket with the ball in it and thus appear on the other side. In the end we see the same result, which is the 'effect' not necessarily the cause. If we could see someone pick up the baseball and put it into the other bucket, then we would also know the 'cause', but in theory we dont always have to know the cause just the effect, because that is often good enough to give us a working knowledge of what we are dealing with. When it becomes not good enough then we have to dig into the physical reality a bit deeper to find out the underlying truths, but a lot of theory stops at a certain knowledge depth because it's good enough for the current era.

 

So, to see if I understand your position correctly.

What is Io in the following circuit under
(a) Conventional Current
(b) Electron Current



I don't think I got an answer from you before.