Thanks for the links on the project meter. That is definitely a good thing to have and I will be putting one together in the very near future.

It's a great thing to have if you like to tinker, which you apparently do. Sure, you can buy LC meters, but the affordable versions are made in China, Korea or Vietnam, and you would have no idea how to fix them if they broke. The project is something that you can build yourself, calibrate yourself, and fix it if it breaks. Besides, it'll give you a cursory intro into using microcontrollers for a very practical purpose. Nothing like creating a very useful tool while you're learning.

The Mr.Fusion idea is very nice too. Wish we had a local outlet around here

Just wait a decade - they'll be selling them in the Big Box-Mart for $39.99 each. Of course, that helps very little now, but it's something to look forward to.

And man-oh-man what I wouldn't give for a nice old Pinto Runabout to play with. Those were the days of EASY modifications.

Back in '73, a guy I worked with had a '71 Pinto Runabout that he'd tricked out. Changed the camshaft timing, advance curves, compression ratio, etc, put on traction bars, wide rear wheels, etc.

He could jump the front wheels over a tall beer can.

There are so many variables on the new engines today that, although a good challenge, isn't near as much fun as experimenting with the older versions.

The problem is trying to keep up with the technology. Don't feel alone there. Mom has no clue how to set the clock on the VCR. I don't know how to reprogram an ECU; but at least I know that you can reprogram it via an OBT-II/OBT-III port. After that, I only have an inkling on what goes on.

Of course, one could always pull the spout connector and revert back to base engine running without the processor controling fuel trims as some people on some forums have done, but you are still unable to adjust spark timing, and despite what they may claim, I tried it and the results were just as I had predicted.

Look, you have to have some kind of controls. Really, the only way to do that nowadays is via computers; whether uC's or larger. Unplugging everything isn't the way to go, unless you have a better replacement.

Creating a better replacement would require a great deal of time on a dynomometer to create a viable default map, and then extrapolate from there. It's not a simple thing, would take a heck of a lot of time, and cost a heck of a lot of money. Unless you have extremely deep pockets, this route isn't for you.

would it be more correct to say 'a better job of controlling the inefficiency'!

There ya go!

I have almost completed the boards for the 2 different circuits that you and Ron H provided. I am hoping the cold will hold off long enough for me to try them both out before having to quit for the winter.

Don't expect much from either circuit.

Ron_H's circuit will do what you originally asked for, but you won't see any benefit out of it. You'll see one of two things; no change, or ECU going open-loop. The reason is because the 450mV threshold will or will not be crossed; nothing else is changed.

My circuit is far more risky than Ron_H's circuit. Mine will change it's output due to variations in EGT temperature. However, neither circuit is viable, due to the limitations of the narrowband lambda sensors.

We're really beating a dead horse here. You can't realistically expect to modify the output of a narrowband sensor, which is why I was so reluctant to post the circuit to begin with.

Basically, both circuits are a huge waste of time and money.

Unless you follow my very early suggestion of broadband sensors, you will be just spinning your wheels and throwing your money away.

But, it's your money. If you want to try to convert a narrowband sensor to a wideband sensor, it's up to you. I can only suggest that your results will be extremely dissappointing, but that's your choice.

You NEED wideband sensors. Otherwise, you're just throwing your money away. Without wideband sensors, you have NO control over your A/F ratio, unless it's right at stochimetric. The addition of H2O2 will throw everything out of whack, and you will have no way to compensate for it.

As for building the circuitry and toroid coil....that seems WAY out of my league, at least at present.

There's a rather steep learning curve when you're getting into it. It's not so bad once you've gained familiarity. However, it takes a lot of time and research.

When I was a tech back in the Corps, I repaired loads of gear. But the designing aspect of the electronics was never really a requirement for the job. So although I toyed around with some simple designs of my own.....nothing like trying to match the resonant frequency of a circuit in order to split an atom ever came up. (Imagine that!) Oh well, I guess this old dog will just have to try and learn a new trick or two. That will be some learning I will attempt over the long months ahead.

I didn't know that you were in the Corps. We might've stomped some similar turf along the way.

I agree w/you that 50kV across the plates in that gang capacitor doesn't interest me much in trying. I have been toying around with ignition coils of various types as well as a 14kV neon sign transformer, but not being able to calculate exactly what I need to do has kept me from doing all but simple experiments on the bench...i.e. plasma arcs, etc. I am in NO WAY afraid of electricity, but I have a VERY heathy respect for it. Once took a jolt from the brass winding rod in an 18kV power supply I was troubleshooting that taught me the respect in a hurry! Threw me up against the wall out of my chair like I was a rag doll! MOST IMPRESSIVE!

In the 70's, I witnessed a radar tech make a backwards somersault into a trashcan while they were attempting to measure the HV from a transmitter. The probe had a crack in it. 18.5kV can give one a nasty jolt, particularly if the person is standing on an aluminum structure.

Last time I ever made that mistake. (Thankfully I had one hand in my pocket at the time. LOL) By the way, how would I figure the optimum working frequency of a given coil? (Automotive coil I mean)

That would take a good bit of experimentation. They're optimized for ignition, not alternative purposes.

Based on engine rpm/hertz, I know the coil will fire over a fairly wide range of frequencies, but is there a way to know it's optimum frequency?

LC time. You need a way to determine the inductance. You don't have that right now.

I want to do more plasma arc experimenting this winter, and I am looking for a small PWM to build that would be tunable to the optimum frequency range of the ignition coil.(These are the newer style Coil-On-Plug type individual coils I am experimenting with) I haven't had much luck with my HHO PWM as the frequencies are way too high I believe.

Usually, schematics on "HHO" websites are made by amateurs that are poorly designed using commonly available yet hopelessly outdated components that have terrible bandwidths.

The LM324 PWM circuit is a prime example. On the website, it's touted as the latest, greatest thing. However, the LM324 is ancient technology, and is really unsuitable for anything over a couple of kHz.
Link: http://alt-nrg.org/pwm-v2.html
Really, it's a bad circuit. It uses an opamp as a comparator at one point (U1C) which will likely cause it to fail soon; opamps are not designed to be run open-loop, where comparators are. 324 opamps have terrible rise/fall times. Even 555 timers have far better times than that opamp does.

Why don't you publish the schematics of the circuit that you're using? We can't help you otherwise.

 

Trust me I do believe you concerning the results I will have with the narrow band sensors, but I'm basically just tinkering anyway, so it really doesn't matter. I'm not loking to save the world, just see how far I can stretch things for myself and family. As for stomping in some of the same spots...anything is possible. I was attached to 1st Marine Brigade. But I have been out for a long time. I got out back in 1980 after I decided it just wasn't for me. (Too many games) Although, I did get a lot of good training and got to spend 3 1/2 years in Hawaii so it wasn't all bad. If I would have been allowed to just do my job I would have stayed in. They made me a very lucrative offer. But my calling was elsewhere. Of course if I had stayed in I could be retired now sitting on a sunny tropical beach somewhere, but that's life! Oh the choices we make through life...LOL. I will make that meter project you recommended. I agree, building and learning as you go is the best method. For myself, at least. I will edit this post with a schematic of my PWM once I find the file I stuck it in. It is not done w/a lm324 but rather with a 555 timer chip. Thanks again for all your help. Are you presently still serving?

 

Trust me I do believe you concerning the results I will have with the narrow band sensors, but I'm basically just tinkering anyway, so it really doesn't matter. I'm not looking to save the world, just see how far I can stretch things for myself and family.

Gotcha.
One way to make my design a bit safer would be to integrate feedback from your EGT sensors - either that, or use a "missing pulse detector" circuit to sense how long it's been since the output fell below 450mV; if too long, give it a brief 0.1v blip. Of course, that will result in fooling the ECU into staying in closed-loop mode with bogus inputs, which will be worse than going open loop.

As for stomping in some of the same spots...anything is possible. I was in charge of the BrigadeServiceSupportGroup repair facility at Kaneohe Bay with the 1st Marine Brigade.

I actually had an opportunity to xfer to MCAS K-bay in late '78, but I didn't want to risk getting assigned to a shop under the same Gunny that backstabbed everyone in a former shop I worked in - he was transferred out there, can't remember which squadron he got assigned to.

But I have been out for a long time. I got out back in 1980 after I decided it just wasn't for me. (Too many games)

Yeah, I got out the same year. End of March. Liked the job. Games sucked. I knew the Phantom was going to be phased out, and the Hornet phased in. I got a job offer I couldn't refuse.

Although, I did get a lot of good training and got to spend 3 1/2 years in Hawaii so it wasn't all bad. If I would have been allowed to just do my job I would have stayed in.

I hear ya.

Of course if I had stayed in I could be retired now sitting on a sunny tropical beach somewhere, but that's life!

It would be tough to live on the retirement pay even if you were a senior SNCO.

I will make that meter project you recommended.

You'll need a programmer. Microchip sells the PICkit 2 development kit for just under $50. Alternatively, you could build a JDM2 programmer or the like. But, the PICkit 2 will program most of Microchip's product line.

I will edit this post with a schematic of my PWM once I find the file I stuck it in. It is not done w/a lm324 but rather with a 555 timer chip.

Just add another reply to the end of the thread, and attach it.

 

Thanks for the advice....hadn't really thought about that. (Regarding the personal e-mail) Good advice though. I have performed the necessary edits. As for my PWM schematic, I found it but can't figure out a way to send you just the schematic as it is part of a lengthy pdf file on Meyers patents. I try to cut and paste just the schematic page to a different file to send you, but the WHOLE file keeps getting copied instead. The PWM I am using utilizes 2-555 timer chips, one for the actual oscillator frquency and the other for gating the signal. I will keep trying to get a copy made to post. Thanks again for the good advice! Will be in touch

 

Thanks for the advice....hadn't really thought about that. (Regarding the personal e-mail) Good advice though. I have performed the necessary edits. As for my PWM schematic, I found it but can't figure out a way to send you just the schematic as it is part of a lengthy pdf file on Meyers patents. I try to cut and paste just the schematic page to a different file to send you, but the WHOLE file keeps getting copied instead. The PWM I am using utilizes 2-555 timer chips, one for the actual oscillator frquency and the other for gating the signal. I will keep trying to get a copy made to post. Thanks again for the good advice! Will be in touch

Are you using the LTSpice if so just attach the asc file. If not which program are you using to make the schematic? Maybe I can help with getting the information up on the board.

 

Thanks for the info cat3rn, but the file I am trying to make a copy of is, like stated in the previous post, buried in a large pdf file. But thanks for the offer anyway.

SgtWookie...still no luck with loading the schematic, so I will try and find another way to get you a copy to review. The circuit is nothing special, just a couple of 555 timers for the oscillator signal and the second for gating. The problem I am having is that the values of the caps and resistors won't allow me to go to as low of a frequency to pulse the ignition coils. If I remember right, the capacitors for the actual oscillator side are 47, 10, and 1 microfarad caps for the different freqs. But of sourse you would need to know the resistor values as well to calculate the freq. It would just be so much easier if I could print a single page out of this $@#& pdf file, but oh well! I will do some searching tonight and try to find the same schematic somewhere else and copy it for you to review. Although I am thinking now that if I am going to be trying to utilize the plasma spark(in testing) it would probably be best to just build another PWM that is more 'in-tune' with the coils I will be using. (Sure wish I had that inductance meter built already.....) At any rate, I will see what I can find tonight and get back to you. Thanks again for all your help.

 

OK, here's one way to get the #$&%'n thing to just the page you want...
1) Arrange the PDF page so that the schematic is as large as possible on your screen without chopping anything off.
2) Press Ctrl+PrintScreen
3) Start Windows Paint (under Programs -> Accessories -> Paint)
4) Press Ctrl+V to paste the screen image into Paint
5) Crop any unneeded stuff.
6) Save it as a type .PNG file.
7) Attach it to a reply using the "Manage Attachments" under "Go Advanced" options.

Meanwhile, if you'd like to see my current version of a 555-based PWM buck current limiter for a cell, click here:
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showpost.php?p=92204&postcount=54
It uses the CONTROL input to the 555 timer; the frequency and PWM ratio are modified by the current sense resistor and opamp feedback loop. It uses a custom-wound inductor that you can make with less than $5 worth of parts. If the whole thing cost you more than about $20, you're not shopping in the right places.

 

Thanks for the info cat3rn, but the file I am trying to make a copy of is, like stated in the previous post, buried in a large pdf file. But thanks for the offer anyway.

If you get the pdf opened up scroll tot he page with the picture on it zoom in to get a nice big picture and then take a screen shot of it using "alt" "prt scr" buttons on the keyboard. (holding down alt then hitting prt scr at the same time) Then paste it into some kind of paint program (you can use MS paint if you like) then save it as a bmp file to your desktop and attach it to a thread.

It is "alt" not "ctrl" for printing the screen shot. Just making a correction Sgt.

If you are able to attach it I will make the LTspike circuit and a layout.

 

Thanks for all the help with the pdf issues. I have located a copy of the PWM I am currently using. What I would like is a PWM that will give me variable oscillations in the lower frequency ranges so that it will trigger my ignition coil to fire for bench testing my plasma arc set-up. That would be first on the agenda as the plasma arc will be my winter project. As we have discussed before, the extent of my mpg gains with the hydroxy have come to an end for now as there is no easy way to modify my spark timing. And I know there are some people out there who claim to be able to run massive amounts of hydroxy into their engines and are supposedly getting awesome results. Good for them. But knowing what I know and have proved out, tells me that they HAVE to be modifying their timing in order to run that much hydroxy and not fight the piston stroke, no matter what they claim! Anyway, enough of that. So what would I need to do to make a PWM (that would also be variably gated) to function at the lower frequencies that an ignition coil will fire off of? Not sure what the optimum freq. would be (as we have already discussed) but I would guess-timate that I would be looking for something in the 500Hz to 8KHz range for starters. I am also looking for a circuit that will oscillate around the 6-10 Hz range. (ELF...for a totally different project) This oscillator wouldn't need to be gated. But the ignition coil oscillator is my first priority. I have always had a hard time calculating the RC values for oscillator timing. Again, not something my prior job called for. I looked at the PWM you referenced in your last post Sarge, but I notice the frequency range for that PWM is up there too. Unsure if it can be slowed way down or how to accomplish that result. Thanks again for your help.
Also, my apologies for my last post as I have kind of run two projects together unintentionally. So to avoid confusion and to be more specific(always a good thing).....the PWM I am looking for NOW, will be used for my plasma arc project and NOT for the resonant cell that I will build(eventually) to match the resonance of the ignition coil. Although if both concepts can be accomplished within the same PWM....so much the better. Hopefully this will clear up any confusion from my last post.

 

My latest cell will (hopefully) be capable of much more production (upwards of 15 liters per minute) if all goes well. This cell's output will be controlled both manually (for a preset level) and through using the 0-5v TP signal fed in as a trigger to my PWM to increase production as needed.

Can you point me in the direction of this cell - design - parts needed etc?????

 

The cell design I am referring to is the Bob Boyce design cell. Instructions and parts list, etc. can be found on his site. I am just going smaller than his 101 plate design. Keep in mind though that this is still a brute force electrolysis cell, so you will need to find a work-around for the alternator power/ engine load concern, as well as the resistance that will develop from pumping in that much Hydroxy without re-timing your motor. I have found you can only pump in so much, before you start fighting the upward stroke of the piston, then your increased MPG's go away extremely fast! Good Luck. Hope this helps.

 

The cell design I am referring to is the Bob Boyce design cell. Instructions and parts list, etc. can be found on his site. I am just going smaller than his 101 plate design. Keep in mind though that this is still a brute force electrolysis cell, so you will need to find a work-around for the alternator power/ engine load concern, as well as the resistance that will develop from pumping in that much Hydroxy without re-timing your motor. I have found you can only pump in so much, before you start fighting the upward stroke of the piston, then your increased MPG's go away extremely fast! Good Luck. Hope this helps.

I have a 120amp alternator. I hope that will do for the power concerns. Maybe there is a way to have production increase or decrease as you drive depending on the conditions. Or maybe just a way to vent the extra HOH when the pressure reaches a certain limit. Probably easier doing the latter.

I wonder if placing the input of the HOH to the intake before the butterfly would work? The extra would vent out the air cleaner thereby keeping the pressure low except when needed.

 

The problem is not with the alternator being able to handle the current draw of the cell. It won't matter how big of an alternator you have in your vehicle. As you increase the electrical demand on the alternator, the alternator itself will create more of a load on your engine, which means you need more fuel to compensate for the increased load. You will reach, as I have, a point of diminishing return. You will find that at a 'certain' current draw you will experience mpg gain, but if you increase the load too much, the gain goes away. And the more you draw, the more the increased engine load. Not to mention that the more hydroxy you pump in, the more resistance to the piston stroke. The best work-around would be some sort of an independent power source for your cell. Not electrically or mechanically tied to your engine in any way, except for the hydroxy feed tube, of course. But that still leaves the spark timing issue to be resolved. Do you have a way of seriously retarding your spark timing?
And as for venting any excess hydroxy to atmosphere...probably NOT a good idea. Especially into your engine compartment! Remember.....HYDROXY + SMALLEST SPARK = BIG BOOM. Been there....done that. Trust me when I tell you that you will not like the end result if that happens under your hood.

 

I have attached a circuit using a 555 and transformer and I am curious as to the merits of it, does anybody have any suggestions?

 

The problem is not with the alternator being able to handle the current draw of the cell. ....... The best work-around would be some sort of an independent power source for your cell.

Well would solar power supply enough charging power to batteries if Ihooked up to 2 - 24v Deep Cycle batteries? Or something like that kind of setup. Do you have any other ideas?

Not electrically or mechanically tied to your engine in any way, except for the hydroxy feed tube, of course. But that still leaves the spark timing issue to be resolved. Do you have a way of seriously retarding your spark timing?

I was also thinking about using it in a Mazda RX-7 that has a Rotary engine (no second stroke it just goes round and round) I could use a programmer to modify the timing but I would have to look at the specs for how much it could retard the timing.

And as for venting any excess hydroxy to atmosphere...probably NOT a good idea. Especially into your engine compartment! Remember.....HYDROXY + SMALLEST SPARK = BIG BOOM. Been there....done that. Trust me when I tell you that you will not like the end result if that happens under your hood.

Well it would not be in the engine compartment but outside the vehicle via a tube of some sort to make sure it is no where near any kind of spark. I know the power it has. I have exploded balloons etc in very large back yard. I live in the country would just scare the crap out of the cows. Literally.
HYDROXY + SMALLEST SPARK = BIG BOOM
BIG BOOM = cow s**t.
Therefore HYDROXY + SMALLEST SPARK = cow s**t.

 

Get a high power alternator - it will be a lot cheaper than solar cells and will be able to power a few HHO cells.

 

Get a high power alternator - it will be a lot cheaper than solar cells and will be able to power a few HHO cells.

However, Capt-Killjoystates

The problem is not with the alternator being able to handle the current draw of the cell. It won't matter how big of an alternator you have in your vehicle. As you increase the electrical demand on the alternator, the alternator itself will create more of a load on your engine, which means you need more fuel to compensate for the increased load. You will reach, as I have, a point of diminishing return. You will find that at a 'certain' current draw you will experience mpg gain, but if you increase the load too much, the gain goes away. And the more you draw, the more the increased engine load. Not to mention that the more hydroxy you pump in, the more resistance to the piston stroke.

I tend to agree with the Capt.

 

Any load on the alternator increases the load on the engine - so even one HHO generator will have an impact. Another factor to consider is that some high power alternators take less horsepower than the stock alternator - it is worth investigating and doing some measurements. I will update you when I have run some tests with mutliple cells

 

Any load on the alternator increases the load on the engine - so even one HHO generator will have an impact. Another factor to consider is that some high power alternators take less horsepower than the stock alternator - it is worth investigating and doing some measurements. I will update you when I have run some tests with mutliple cells

I can put an underdrive pulley on it which would make it spin faster so it would require less power to get more out of it.

 

Improving mechanical efficiency will indeed lead to better mileage. So will a reduction in vehicle mass. Even good driving habits have a beneficial effect.