Does prayer really work?

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jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,087
Re: Is atheism a religion?

Atheism denies the existence of any God. That is its Latin derivation.
From:Wikipedia (emphasis added)
Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of life and the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency, or human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, spiritual, or divine.
Note use of the word "especially." In other words, that definition does not require that a religion include in its tenets belief in a supernatural power.

The Dalai Lama visited the US several years ago (no political implications are intended). He was asked whether he believed in the existence of a God and whether one had to believe in a god to be religious. He responded with a concept called "secular spiritualism." Again, quoting from Wikipedia:

Secular spirituality, as a cultural phenomenon, refers to the adherence to a spiritual ideology without the advocation of a religious framework. Secular spirituality in principle might embrace many of the same types of practices as religious spirituality, but the motivation is different. Clearly, since beliefs are radically different from those found in most religious spiritual traditions, the emphasis is likely to be on practice rather than belief and on the inner peace of the individual rather than on a relationship with the divine. Proponents make a case for a form of secular spirituality in which the motivation is simply to live happily and/or to help others, which demonstrates how such a motivation can lead to a spiritual life based on the development of qualities very like those prized by many religions.
I thought it was a powerful statement for a person in his position to make. In answer to your question, I think some people may be atheists and have a religion too. Atheism by itself, however, does not seem to meet the definition of a religion.

John

Edit: A related term is agnostic.
 
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tom66

Joined May 9, 2009
2,595
Re: Is atheism a religion?

Atheism denies the existence of any God. That is its Latin derivation.
No, that would make polytheists atheists, and also those who deny the existence of a god as we would see it (instead for example, believing a flying spaghetti monster truthfully) would also be atheists. It's important here the capilisation of the word "God", because this generally points to the God of the Bible, which is capitilised, whereas "god" comes under "any supernatural being as we would see one." Atheism does not necessary deny the existance of one or more supernatural entities, but could also assume the position of "no belief." I hold the position in "no belief" either way of their being a god or gods.

See this video. It is a very good way of explaining it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk

Edit: A related term is agnostic.
Not really. Agnosticism is the the belief in there being insufficient evidence to decide on the existance of god(s), and is not the lack of opinion, which would include atheism.
 
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theanih

Joined Oct 3, 2010
21
in Islam, there is a quote where it said that humans will never be capable of understanding the god's work; angels, prays, how the universe work etc. no matter how smart you are i don't think the humans will understand the origins/makings of human. yes nowadays you can make body parts and internal organs but i don't think we will come to the point where we can make a human. and as far as i'm concerned in my religion, god create humans and placed them on earth, and i believe that is our greatest ancestors. they're maybe a bit different physically/anatomically but they are definitely not apes. so i'm gonna go with that.

i believe in god and i do believe that prayers really work if you're honest, truthful and faithful. but there are rules in praying (at least in my religion) like you can't pray to harm other people or for your selfish needs. e.g praying to win a lottery is useless. at least in my religion, because stuff like lottery is sinful for us.

and also, if we really descend from apes, how did our conscience developed? because in my understanding, that is what that differ us from animals. we know right from wrong.
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,415
Every study chimps? Neither have I, but Jane Goodall (sp?) has.

Chimps have most of the attributes man have, abhorrent behavior, war, love, tool using. I remember a story about a chimp that knew sign language and accidentally broke his keepers arm (they are also enormously stronger). He was genuinely sorry, and kept signing "I'm sorry" over and over. Sounds like remorse, and that sounds the basis of a conscience to me.

People keep trying to separate themselves from animals, so far the only real difference I've seen is technology (brains).
 

jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,087
Atheism does not necessary deny the existance of one or more supernatural entities, but could also assume the position of "no belief." I hold the position in "no belief" either way of their being a god or gods.
The more accepted definition is denial, based on derivation of the word. There is an alternative and widely accepted term for those with no opinion, namely agnosticism.

From: Wikipedia
Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
And regarding my comment that a related term was agnosticism, you say
Not really. Agnosticism is the the belief in there being insufficient evidence to decide on the existance of god(s), and is not the lack of opinion, which would include atheism.
That is a distinction without a difference. Since we are discussing aspects of religious belief (e.g., prayer), if you have not even thought about religion seriously, you should refrain from comment. If you have thought about it, weighed the evidence, and still have no opinion, then you become an agnostic. Thus, it is a related term.

John
 

tom66

Joined May 9, 2009
2,595
The more accepted definition is denial, based on derivation of the word. There is an alternative and widely accepted term for those with no opinion, namely agnosticism.
It doesn't matter what the more accepted definition is. People would like to say atheism denies the existance of god(s), mainly to make a contrast between the two (so they can make a broad, sweeping statement), but it is simplify the position of no belief. Did you watch the video?

That is a distinction without a difference. Since we are discussing aspects of religious belief (e.g., prayer), if you have not even thought about religion seriously, you should refrain from comment. If you have thought about it, weighed the evidence, and still have no opinion, then you become an agnostic. Thus, it is a related term.
There is a distinction. Atheist = no opinion (personal belief sometimes backed by logical basis), agnosticism = no evidence (entirely logical basis.)

I do not believe in the existence of a god or gods. This is because I believe there is evidence against all major religions. However, that wouldn't make me an agnostic, because I could believe in a certain type of god - said being could have planted evidence for its non-existence.

Do you believe in a giant, omnipotent pink elephant that rules over all of us, which created the universe 13.7bn years ago? (this is not a trick question.)
 

BillO

Joined Nov 24, 2008
999
Just Googled it, to6afre, the answer is no; just man was created 6000 years ago, I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.
Well, I find this very interesting. Honestly I do, and maybe Rifaa, you could chime in on this too as you seem to hold this belief as well.

So, humans were created 6,000 years ago. Let’s not talk about what we can see, or have seen or have not seen to support or dispute this yet. I’d just like to see if we can come to an agreement on what a 'human' is.

So let me ask a few sub-questions. The goal of these sub-questions is to adequately answer the overall question, what is a human?

Let me begin then with these:

1) Is a human a member of the species homo sapiens (homo s.)?
2) If 1) is true, then are all homo s. to be considered Humans?
3) If 1) is not true, what species are humans?
4) If 2) is not true, is the point at which homo s. changes to human a cultural one?
5) If 4) is false, which homo s. subspecies was the first to be human?


There are several more questions, but the exact formulation of them will depend on the answers to these 5. I really appreciate your participation in this. This is not intended to result in any mockery or antireligious attack. I merely want to establish a common point of reference. It is possible that there are differences in the way the term ‘human’ or ‘man’ is being interpreted here that might be causing conflict. Anyone is of course welcome to answer these 5 questions. In fact I encourage it, so that we can see the extent of the difference in point of reference. However, I am fairly well versed in the popularly held scientific responses.
 

theanih

Joined Oct 3, 2010
21
well how about that. haha
either way i'm comfortable in believing that god made man. it makes so much more sense to me although there's no plausible evidence in that.
 

tom66

Joined May 9, 2009
2,595
well how about that. haha
either way i'm comfortable in believing that god made man. it makes so much more sense to me although there's no plausible evidence in that.
It's a comfortable belief. I'd like to believe in god(s), but just like an imaginary best friend, once you realise that the belief is illogical you can't regain your faith.
 

Otaku

Joined Nov 19, 2008
128
Interesting thread. I once worked with a very pious Chem Engineer, who was also convinced that the Earth was created ~13K years ago (man came later, of course). I asked her about the fossil record, samples of which have been shown to be many millions of years old. I couldn't understand how she could use the same mathematical constants in our profession as were used by radiochemists to verify the age of a fossilized dinosaur bone, yet say that the math wasn't valid for radiocarbon dating. She agreed that the math was consistent, but that Satan had placed these misleading fossils in the ground for us to find and date, thus undermining our ability to have faith in a Creator. No matter how one tried to use logic or factual, verifiable evidence get her to see both sides of the argument, it always came down to having to believe in magic.
 

Thread Starter

Kermit2

Joined Feb 5, 2010
4,162
I didn't realize a kitten in a tree could fly so far off topic in just 5 pages. And I'm guilty of contributing 'off topic' material as well.



Who will win?
Inquiring minds want to know...Stay tuned.


<snip>, but I watch too much TV,
:)
 
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R!f@@

Joined Apr 2, 2009
9,918
I can throw in a little light on fossil.
Fossils and dinosaurs and everything before Adam was sent to earth were there for the reason that humans will use them for our need. It will take millions of years to fossilize and produce oil, but a million years in nothing compared to the time in the heavens.
U say, or, many of u say heaven and earth were created in 6 days or something.
Can any one tell me six days of whose time. Our solar system time line or lord's time line. I say "this" time is not of our calculation and we will never know exactly how long it took, since we donno what "time" is. My and Ur lord does not need time to do any thing. God just says "let it be" and it is "there".

Ever heard the saying, "let there be light, and then there was light". How many of u exactly know wht this sentence means. I doubt that even one of u knew it's meaning and how powerful the phrase actually is. I will throw light on this if I am asked for it.

As for magic. Magic is not magic, It is something spiritual. Something done with the aid of Satan and his followers, the "jinn". Magic's primary goal is for u to be overwhelmed by it and for u to try it and for u to gain attention. Nothing more.

Which in turn misleads u to find aid from Satan whose, only aim is to take human kind's faith away from our creator and be by his side at judgment day. Satan is the only jinn given the powers of an angel. He can be everywhere at any given time. He is always between a man and women when they are alone, He is there when u are desperate for something, he is there when u desire something. He is everywhere and this power is given to him to do what he pleases till our time ends.
His only judgment is tht he want be judged but will be thrown in to the deepest region of hell, no questions asked. So his task is to take as many human soul he can to accompany him into hell fire.
Anyone who does magic or is amazed by it is doing something terrible even by not knowing it. Magic is something God warned us about. It is the path of a disbeliever. Period. U are advised to seek help from him and him alone. Which is what we do. We "Pray" to the lord.
Prayers will be answered in ways no human can ever imagine. Prayers are answered for those who believe in him and for those who asks for his protection. No 1 can protect u from him, yet he can protect u from everyone.
You say u pray but how do u pray. No one shud pray for the worlds wealth when this world holds no meaning.
This world isn't worth even a mosquito's wing. How many of did know tht.

Tell me what is the value of this world. Let me tell u what is the value of this universe u and I live in. Nothing, absolutely nothing, You and I and everything and everyone we ever knew can be wiped out of existence in just a mere pico second or even faster than that. That is the time we take for granted but actually has no meaning.
We are here for a purpose, we are given intelligence and dominion over everything for the fact that god made us. In heaven or hell, there is no time, it is eternal or never ends or forever. No one can even comprehend what forever means. U can just simply sway ur head or shrug it's forever.

None of you even think about what will happen when u don't pray.

Evolution never happened. Monkeys, Apes, bacteria or even the smallest particle the atom, are made for us to learn from them and use them for our benefit and to realize the awesomeness of one true god. Do u ever think a human can make a human, or ever create life. No, Never. A created cannot create. Only the creator can create.

why in heavens name shud the creator become what he can create to convince us. who can tell me, why did God made us in his image.
Humans are so degenerate to believe god made us in his image. Why would god become something so disgusting, something so fragile, something so smelly, something so dependent, something that can never survive on it's own, something that has the most unimaginable thoughts, something so destructive.
Who can tell me why u say god made us in his image

Those who don't believe in a god, tell me something, do u exist by chance.
I gtg....too much work, will continue later.
 
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t06afre

Joined May 11, 2009
5,934
Wov R!f@@, that was one heavy torch. I think we have agree to disagree on this topic. And put our effort into helping other with electronic related questions:)
Ps If you look at things once more you will see that you are wrong and I am correct
(just joking :p could not resist:D)
 

tom66

Joined May 9, 2009
2,595
I can throw in a little light on fossil.
Fossils and dinosaurs and everything before Adam was sent to earth were there for the reason that humans will use them for our need. It will take millions of years to fossilize and produce oil, but a million years in nothing compared to the time in the heavens.
Not all fossils become oil, only those of plant life and sea life really. Things like land mammals, what is the use of those?

U say, or, many of u say heaven and earth were created in 6 days or something.
Can any one tell me six days of whose time. Our solar system time line or lord's time line. I say "this" time is not of our calculation and we will never know exactly how long it took, since we donno what "time" is. My and Ur lord does not need time to do any thing. God just says "let it be" and it is "there".
I never said this, I merely pointed out the bible said this. By changing the basis of time, you can make the bible mean anything. So we can't trust a word in it. Do you see the problem? It is too open to interpretation.

Ever heard the saying, "let there be light, and then there was light". How many of u exactly know wht this sentence means. I doubt that even one of u knew it's meaning and how powerful the phrase actually is. I will throw light on this if I am asked for it.
The saying comes from Genesis, but I have not read the bible so do not know in what context it comes. The phrase refers to God initiating sunlight. However, such a phrase is erroneous, at best. Because that would imply that God created light (photons), instead of creating the sun to produce light...

As for magic. Magic is not magic, It is something spiritual. Something done with the aid of Satan and his followers, the "jinn". Magic's primary goal is for u to be overwhelmed by it and for u to try it and for u to gain attention. Nothing more.
No, magic is not real. Magic is anything anyone wants to attribute to unexplainable phenomena. Hence "magicians", people who perform "magic" by using sleight of hand and other tricks.

"Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke. This statement points out how uneducated or uninformed people could well think of technology as magic.

Which in turn misleads u to find aid from Satan whose, only aim is to take human kind's faith away from our creator and be by his side at judgment day.
Ah, the threat of Satan and hell. Problem here is, I am not afraid or scared of something I do not believe in. For example, I am not scared of zombies and vampires, because I do not believe in them.

Satan is the only jinn given the powers of an angel. He can be everywhere at any given time. He is always between a man and women when they are alone, He is there when u are desperate for something, he is there when u desire something. He is everywhere and this power is given to him to do what he pleases till our time ends. His only judgment is tht he want be judged but will be thrown in to the deepest region of hell, no questions asked. So his task is to take as many human soul he can to accompany him into hell fire.
But why? I ask you this, if your God is truly loving, why does he allow Satan to exist?

Anyone who does magic or is amazed by it is doing something terrible even by not knowing it.
I suppose you should talk to James Randi about this.

Magic is something God warned us about. It is the path of a disbeliever. Period. U are advised to seek help from him and him alone. Which is what we do. We "Pray" to the lord.
Several magicians have not lost their faith in any religion. However, after seeing how people can be easily tricked into believing something, they may start to question their faith.

Prayers will be answered in ways no human can ever imagine. Prayers are answered for those who believe in him and for those who asks for his protection. No 1 can protect u from him, yet he can protect u from everyone.
So now your God is merciful AND smites you to hell if you don't believe in him? What kind of god would hide evidence for its existance, except a poorly written, inconsistent holy book, then smite those who do not believe in it?

You say u pray but how do u pray. No one shud pray for the worlds wealth when this world holds no meaning.
This world isn't worth even a mosquito's wing. How many of did know tht.
I suggest you see the video, "Pale Blue Dot."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wupToqz1e2g

Tell me what is the value of this world. Let me tell u what is the value of this universe u and I live in. Nothing, absolutely nothing. You and I and everything and everyone we ever knew can be wiped out of existence in just a mere pico second or even faster than that. That is the time we take for granted but actually has no meaning.
That's awfully depressing and shows one of the dangers of most religions - the lack of consequence. Instead of living in fear of a god/devil, thinking your contributions are meaningless, why not do something good in this world? You maybe live 100 years out of the 13.7 billion so far in the universe. Your life is not meaningless! In these 100 years, you could change the world. Just look at people like Ghandi, Martin Luther King...

We are here for a purpose, we are given intelligence and dominion over everything for the fact that god made us. In heaven or hell, there is no time, it is eternal or never ends or forever. No one can even comprehend what forever means. U can just simply sway ur head or shrug it's forever.
You say you are here for a purpose, but you also say your life is insignificant. You can choose only one.

I honestly think neither Heaven nor Hell is preferable. Why? In life, their is a consequence to every action. For example I could climb Everest, with my lack of experience, I'd probably die. There's my consequence - the risk of loosing my life. But in your heaven, there would be no consequence, and thus there would be no thrill to anything. If my electronics don't work, screw it - I have an eternety to perfect it. To the mind, Heaven sounds fantastic - but it would be one of the worse tortures ever.

None of you even think about what will happen when u don't pray.
When I don't prey, nothing happens.
When I prey, nothing happens.

Is your God ignoring my prayers or does he not exist? In fact, the two are indistinguishable.

Evolution never happened. Monkeys, Apes, bacteria or even the smallest particle the atom, are made for us to learn from them and use them for our benefit and to realize the awesomeness of one true god. Do u ever think a human can make a human, or ever create life. No, Never. A created cannot create. Only the creator can create.
We've been over this, if you don't believe evolution then I don't care. But evolution does happen, you can observe it. Just Google It.

why in heavens name shud the creator become what he can create to convince us. who can tell me, why did God made us in his image.
If God made us in his image, why are there so many religions factions and denominations? For example, Sunni and Shia muslims, and probably more. Your God must have 1,000 personalities.

Humans are so degenerate to believe god made us in his image. Why would god become something so disgusting, something so fragile, something so smelly, something so dependent, something that can never survive on it's own, something that has the most unimaginable thoughts, something so destructive.
Who can tell me why u say god made us in his image
The Bible says so.
 

Markd77

Joined Sep 7, 2009
2,806
I too think we are insignificant, but from an aethiest viewpoint. Very few people have the drive, talent or opportunity to make world changing decisions. This world is also tiny compared to the universe which may well contain other civilisations and the entire history of humanity is barely noticable compared to the age of the universe. A thousand years from now only historians will have heard of more than a few people from this century.
 

R!f@@

Joined Apr 2, 2009
9,918
Originally Posted by R!f@@
Humans are so degenerate to believe god made us in his image. Why would god become something so disgusting, something so fragile, something so smelly, something so dependent, something that can never survive on it's own, something that has the most unimaginable thoughts, something so destructive.
Who can tell me why u say god made us in his image
and tom66 says.. The Bible says so.


Really....I did not take this phrase from the bible. It just came out, when I was typing...

Yet tom, I have answers to all ur questions, but not now..
for now I have an elevator tht is giving me trouble.
So we'll again chit chat when time permits.
I was just checking on my posts.

Take care.
 

tom66

Joined May 9, 2009
2,595
and tom66 says.. The Bible says so.


Really....I did not take this phrase from the bible. It just came out, when I was typing...

Yet tom, I have answers to all ur questions, but not now..
for now I have an elevator tht is giving me trouble.
So we'll again chit chat when time permits.
I was just checking on my posts.

Take care.
I have not read the Bible, I just get Christians trying to convert us lots here! In the UK, ~45% are "no religion". I've recently noticed an increase in the "YOU WILL GO TO HELL" (hellfire preaching) leaflets we get. I put them straight into the shredder.
 

BillO

Joined Nov 24, 2008
999
Well, I find this very interesting. Honestly I do, and maybe Rifaa, you could chime in on this too as you seem to hold this belief as well.

So, humans were created 6,000 years ago. Let’s not talk about what we can see, or have seen or have not seen to support or dispute this yet. I’d just like to see if we can come to an agreement on what a 'human' is.

So let me ask a few sub-questions. The goal of these sub-questions is to adequately answer the overall question, what is a human?

Let me begin then with these:

1) Is a human a member of the species homo sapiens (homo s.)?
2) If 1) is true, then are all homo s. to be considered Humans?
3) If 1) is not true, what species are humans?
4) If 2) is not true, is the point at which homo s. changes to human a cultural one?
5) If 4) is false, which homo s. subspecies was the first to be human?


There are several more questions, but the exact formulation of them will depend on the answers to these 5. I really appreciate your participation in this. This is not intended to result in any mockery or antireligious attack. I merely want to establish a common point of reference. It is possible that there are differences in the way the term ‘human’ or ‘man’ is being interpreted here that might be causing conflict. Anyone is of course welcome to answer these 5 questions. In fact I encourage it, so that we can see the extent of the difference in point of reference. However, I am fairly well versed in the popularly held scientific responses.
So, no one wants to take a systematic approach to this?:confused:

Fine. Rant away. Without some sort of agreed frame of reference you are merely wasting time. Enjoy.:p
 

BillO

Joined Nov 24, 2008
999
Monkeys, Apes, bacteria or even the smallest particle the atom, are made for us to learn from them and use them for our benefit ...
Yes, and we used them to formulate our ideas around evolution. That is what the study of them indicates and that is what we learned.

Do you think if there was a 'God' he would be inane enough to create everything independantly or would he create a very clever mechanism that could generate all different forms of life, like evolution.

Nevermind, now I am arguing that evolution implies a 'God'...:p
 
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