OK... Humans and living things evolves. This is something like adapting to it's habitat.

I agree.

I really do not understand what makes tom66 think that Darwin was correct

Darwin was way wrong, he was trying to prove something he never understood or rather did not want to believe something.

Human did not evolve from monkeys. or anything else for tht matter.

Humans did not evolve from monkeys, or apes. We evolved from great apes, which branched off into the two groups we see today: current apes, and hominids (us.)

Interestingly Darwin was apparently Christian at a younger age, but the more he questioned his belief (as he discovered contradictory evidence) the more his opinion changed.

As for u suggesting what bible says, have any one of u really read the only bible tht was written first. I think what u have is the new versions or rather late edition.
Tom66 says I believe in a holy book. And yes I do. Since U have already said holy, I too respect the original bible and it is too holy. It is the edited versions that I find bogus. What they have added and omitted to their likings.

Holy book = any religious book, simplest way of saying it, whether you follow Quran, Bible, Torah, whatever, it's a holy book. I have no comment on the edited versions of the bible, I haven't read it in any great detail.

If u believe in the bible then u, tom66, shud believe in Adam and Eve..not that Darwin lunatic.
It's from Adam and Eve humans came from. Bible says tht. If u cannot find it, then I suggest u find the original one.

The Bible says that Adam was made from clay and Eve from a rib of Adam. This would actually seem worse than saying humans evolved from great apes, yet you call Darwin a lunatic...

We Muslims follow the bible in more ways than a true christian. u can say that I am a believer in Christ. And I do follow Christ teachings. In fact I am a better christian than any one out there.

I'm sure everyone thinks they are the best Christian/Muslim/etc. Some of the bible's teachings, like don't kill, don't steal, are pretty standard morals that I, and most people, even non-religious/atheists follow.

As for the topic.

Prayers are answered in ways that u cannot even imagine. I believe in prayers and I believe my prayers are answered according to my actions.
I can tell u things tht u cannot even comprehend. But I cannot make u believe. Cause humans are given the gift of free will.

As I hear it, prayers are given three categories:

yes = the prayer is answered
wait = the prayer may be answered in the future
no = the prayer is not answered

Now lets say I pray to my god to win the lottery. And I don't that day, so I give up. But then I win it next week. Would you say my prayer was answered?

I am glad my free will allows me to break free of religion, it clears the mind and doesn't make you feel like you'll be smitten at any moment if God doesn't like you.

This belief is not exclusive to me. In the UK 45% have "no religion."

Wow, this is getting a bit religious now. I think we should tone it down, or this thread will be closed.

 

Quote R!f@@ "Human did not evolve from monkeys."

I don't think Darwin ever said that. This is one of those things that people change to make him look bad.

I think you will find the Bible says that the world and everything on it was created during the same six days and He rested on the seventh.

tom66, you type faster than I do!

 

Ya ...tom does type really fast.

Hee hee hee monkeys.. something I saw from the TV.

Tom, why are u confusing the clay and human part.
Is there something U do not understand or find it difficult to believe.

As for the thread....it's abt prayers...so it is tied with ones belief.
But I am not going to argue and get out of hand.

I hope everyone will keep it simple.
It's is nice to see what others belief. We all have a common goal and we all share a very good character and a thing, so why can't we discuss things what we want amongst us. It's not a big deal. I do not see a reason to lock the thread.

As for toms confusion, I like to talk abt this to tom66. I am just curios. If U are not a believer in any religion, then all I have to say to u for now is.

Congratulations my brother.

ps....sorry ....but Darwin is a lunatic

 

@Tom66

First of all, please don't mistake my position on evolution. I think evolution in a general sense is proven scientific fact. There have been unintentional experiments in urban settings with insects that substantiate that natural evolution can and does occur. What is unproven is what made stone age man become civilized? I can't believe that cave men fed a modern diet of hamburgers, French fries, and frozen pizza would all have become successful insurance salesmen.

Where I seem to differ with you is the arbitrary distinction between science and religion. Some people claim that science is distinguished from religion by the fact that science presents arguments that can be experimentally tested; whereas, religion does not.* So, in the documentary by a usually reliable source that you saw, what experiments were performed to confirm the hypothesis? To take that a bit further, what experiments support string theory? The Big Bang? And so forth.

Religion is being tested today. That was not possible 40 or 50 years ago in Western culture. But it is being done today in various cultures around the world. Does that give it more scientific validity that certain scientific claims that cannot be tested by experiment?

John

*On a personal note, I used to be an avid reader of Scientific American from about the 4th grade (1953) and Science News when it became available much later. The respective editors refused to have any discussion of intelligent design and dismissed it as religion, because "religion presents no hypothesis that can be tested." In the very same issue of Science News in which the editor made that statement, string theory and branes were discussed, and it was stated explicitly that no experiments could be done to prove either. Comments were submitted to point out that hypocrisy, but none were published. I canceled my subscription. Apparently, a lot of other people have canceled too, but probably not all for that reason.

 

@Tom66

First of all, please don't mistake my position on evolution. I think evolution in a general sense is proven scientific fact. There have been unintentional experiments in urban settings with insects that substantiate that natural evolution can and does occur. What is unproven is what made stone age man become civilized? I can't believe that cave men fed a modern diet of hamburgers, French fries, and frozen pizza would all have become successful insurance salesmen.

I don't know. Perhaps you should ask someone more experienced in this field. There is a wealth of literature on this subject.

Where I seem to differ with you is the arbitrary distinction between science and religion. Some people claim that science is distinguished from religion by the fact that science presents arguments that can be experimentally tested; whereas, religion does not.* So, in the documentary by a usually reliable source that you saw, what experiments were performed to confirm the hypothesis? To take that a bit further, what experiments support string theory? The Big Bang? And so forth.

I think that science becomes more important than religion when it makes things work.

For example, I hold in my hand a 100 Mbps ethernet cable. If I told you tiny particles weighing almost nothing travelled along this magic cable, creating no sound, no light, barely a measurable factor, then I say it can transmit trillions of these particles in one second, to carry millions of data bits - would you believe me? Probably not. But it works, we know electrons exist, because we can see their effects, and electrons have many, many practical applications, I'm using many with my laptop right now.

String theory - that's a tricky one. This is one element of science I disagree with. However, string theory is not religious because it does have evidence to back its claim. It does lay a path for future theories. The problem is it is way too theoretical for me to even think about.

The Big Bang can be easily proven using your telescope, (if you have one), more distant galaxies are redder in color (ever so slightly) pointing to an expansion of the Universe. It's only a matter of rewinding the clock, and with a little help from cosmic microwave background radiation, and we can see how it happened.

Religion is being tested today. That was not possible 40 or 50 years ago in Western culture. But it is being done today in various cultures around the world today. Does that give it more scientific validity that certain scientific claims that cannot be tested by experiment?

Typically, religion is not scientific. It depends though to what degree you are willing to alter your beliefs when new evidence arrives. There is a saying: science changes its theories to fit evidence, religion changes the evidence to fit its theories.

*On a personal note, I used to be an avid reader of Scientific American from about the 4th grade (1953) and Science News when it became available much later. The respective editors refused to have any discussion of intelligent design and dismissed it as religion, because "religion presents no hypothesis that can be tested." In the very same issue of Science News in which the editor made that statement, string theory and branes were discussed, and it was stated explicitly that no experiments could be done to prove either. Comments were submitted to point out that hypocrisy, but none were published. I canceled my subscription. Apparently, a lot of other people have canceled too, but probably not all for that reason.

I have already talked about string theory.

The thing is, intelligent design is really another way of saying "god did it." It attempts to disguise creationism as a science to get it into classrooms. Read up on Dover vs. Kitzmiller, it was thrown out of the courts. It is for this reason many scientists do not like intelligent design.

Goodnight all.

Rif@@, please provide a reason for saying "...Darwin is a lunatic."

 

Humans did not evolve from great apes...Believe it.
Apes are just apes. They were there then and they are here now.

If apes evolved then there shud not be any apes left on earth.

How come some evolved and some did not?

hmmmm....u cannot answer tht. I wonder why?

To me Darwin is a wannabe because to me his theory doesn't make any sense what so ever.

Do u believe in time travel, tom66. This is not a trick question.

 

Humans did not evolve from great apes...Believe it.
Apes are just apes. They were there then and they are here now.

If apes evolved then there shud not be any apes left on earth.

How come some evolved and some did not?

hmmmm....u cannot answer tht. I wonder why?

I can explain it easily.

It's as silly as saying "If I am descended from Irish ancestors, why are there still Irish people around?", or maybe, "if Christianity developed from Judaism, why are there still Jews?"

Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/faqs.html#apes

Also, here's Google: this question has been asked many times before.

http://www.google.com/search?client...+be+any+apes+left+on+earth.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

To me Darwin is a wannabe because to me his theory doesn't make any sense what so ever.

Have you even bothered to try to figure it out?

Do u believe in time travel, tom66. This is not a trick question.

Travelling forward, yep, doing it right now. Relativity would seem to suggest we could stop time if we had an infinite amount of energy. But going back would imply a decrease in entropy, which I would see as impossible (violating one of many laws of thermodynamics.)

 

Thanks to all for avoiding letting this get out of hand. We are always concerned about hot-button issues like religion and politics, as those issues impinge on beliefs.

It is not likely that any change in beliefs will come from this discussion, but some issues are interesting.

Evolution is simply hard to follow. The ape to man seemingly especially so. There are other examples of evolutionary change in the very incomplete fossil record. It can be demonstrated that the world has not always been as it is today, so leaving organisms with no capability for change means nearly all modern life forms would not exist.

Frankly, evolution and free will do not feel inconsistent.

 

personally i think that the theory of evolution is pretty well proven at this stage (although can never be fully proven, hence the name theory!). just look at how dieses and bugs constantly mutate and evolve to combat our changes in antibiotics and other drugs.

in my opipion mankind always seems to put itself on a pedistol, assuming we are special in our place in the universe, like the sun revoles round the earth and the earth is the centre of the universe. yet here we are with a greater understanding of our surroundings and increasingly finding out that we are no more than a grain of sand in the vast expanse of the universe.
we cling to every last thread of our past beliefes of our place in whichever god we believe in's universe. slowly but surley we come round to accept the facts we can observe around us.

the thought that man has only been around for 6000 years is outrageus when we look at all the research, and evidence found by others through the years.
as regards the original question about does prayer work, my thought on it is yes and no, no in the sense that praying to whin the lotto prob wont do anything to increase your chances (otherwise i'd be rolling in it!) but yes in the sense that it can be thought of as a kind of meditation technique and can help calm the mind to help it focus.

but these are just opinions of one individual, a doubting thomas you might say!

 

I prefer to keep a good discussion going. We could learn pretty interesting things about each other.
I will get back at this later, yesterday & last night is a bit hectic. Lotta work to do before the vacation.

 

One once stated there should be no prayer in schools. Another replied ... as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools.

 

Humans did not evolve from great apes...Believe it.
Apes are just apes. They were there then and they are here now.

If apes evolved then there shud not be any apes left on earth.

How come some evolved and some did not?

I find this misconception among a wide spectrum of people from dumb to highly intelligent. They don't understand a key point in this theory.

Just because something evolves doesn't mean its previous 'unevolved' form disappears.

Evolution occurs when gene sequences are changed from those inherited and become a new and different version which is passed on to THAT SINGLE INDIVIDUAL ANIMAL OR PLANT's offspring/seeds. It becomes evolution simply by those genes becoming another living, reproducing set of unique DNA. Another type of life begins to compete with those around it. If the trait evolved by the mutation is beneficial to the animal/plant. It will thrive and prosper, and perhaps do so better that its earlier cousins did. So, it is, that we have bacteria and giraffes, whales and platypus, viruses and fungi. Old ancient, simple lifeforms, and new freshly evolved lifeforms. All living together on the planet at the same time.

It does help to have read the book by the man who founded the theory you don't believe in.

 

And even then two species may be able to interbreed, without making viable offsprint. A cross between a horse and a donkey is a mule, which is sterile, but it is a valuable animal.

When two subspecies have been apart long enough where they can't interbreed, this is called speciation.

 

I wouldn't get too hung up on what defines a species. Ability to sexually reproduce was used for many years and still is, but it is not the only way to define a species. Distinctions based on phenotypic differences (taxonomy) or genetic relatedness are also fraught with problems.

Suffice it to say, humans are not chimpanzees. Whether we are the same species is less certain.

John

 

With 99.4%(I think that is right) of our genes being IDENTICAL I think we might have had an ancestor in common before evolving apart.

 

Unfortunately, I have heard of experiments to crossbreed humans and chimps. Fortunately the fetus miscarried. I don't remember enough information to quote references though.

 

Humans did not evolve from great apes...Believe it.
Apes are just apes. They were there then and they are here now.
If apes evolved then there shud not be any apes left on earth.
How come some evolved and some did not?
hmmmm....u cannot answer tht. I wonder why?
To me Darwin is a wannabe because to me his theory doesn't make any sense what so ever.

Do u believe in time travel, tom66. This is not a trick question.

So you think suddenly one morning humans did rise up from nothing like Adam and Eve. Humans ancestors and the apes once walked on the same evolutionary pathway. And if we go back far enough we will both have the same ancestors. But somehow humans and apes split apart on the evolutionary pathway. And evolved differently as we all know. This happened between 8 and 4 million years ago. So the chimpanzees, apes, and humans are far from the same species. But in evolutionary context we are quite related to each other
You will find this quite interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

 

I believe the Bible tells storys that are true but written so as to be understood by much more unsophisticated peoples who were farmers and hunters.

From this viewpoint I see the Garden of Eden story as a tale of our evolution from animal(The Garden part) to self aware, and questioning beings(The exile from the garden)

We became like God(s) and left the animal paradise behind for mental pursuits, and lost our need and connection with mother nature which other animals still have.

My interpretation, but it keeps me warm on those cold chilly nights when unhappy people are pressing points of godlessness and despair.

 

OK. Guys. I sat down to write what I know and i am lost on how to go about this....really....
There so many things I can say but I donno how to say them properly as my native tongue is not English. From the way I say it, u might take a different meaning from it.
U all are very fluent cause you use English everyday unlike me. I hardly get to speak English at all, I am only writing when I am here in AAC.

So I guess I will take my time and quot from the post line by line, this way u guys will understand what I mean and to what I am referring to.

I have been up for 36Hrs straight. Now I got some time off, so I am ready to crash. Did a lotta work. Need to finish them before the Eid vacation. I will catch up to this thread later when I am comfortable.
I think u guys wud like to see my point of view too.

 

I dont believe it works.
I am atheism.Is it also a kind of religion?