Designing A new Wasted Power Recovery system on gasoline vehicles

Discussion in 'Automotive Electronics' started by MADI1, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. MADI1

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 19, 2015
    7
    0
    How are you every one

    I preparing for the final stage of graduation project, and I need some help ;)

    First of all let me explain briefly the project :

    This project will employ every source of wasted power in vehicle to use it as electrical demand of the vehicle
    Then remove the conventional alternator from the engine and air compressor, since the vehicle will use the sources of wasted power only .

    This project splits into 4-systems :
    - Recover heat energy lose in the exhaust by using Thermo Electric Generators :
    This part will put three layers under the hall vehicle floor: hot plate ( 300 Celsius ) , TEG , and a cold plate ( 50 Celsius ) , this arrangement will produce 14 V .

    - Recover wind energy by putting a wind turbine and small alternator in the front pumper .

    - Regenerative Suspension System, here by using 4-ball screws and 4-small alternators .

    - Finally Regenerative Braking-Like System - here by using tow small alternators to ensure that, the internal resistance will not make a resistance on the vehicle movement like HYBRID vehicles .

    -- Now what's the best way to wire these components If needed that :
    1- All circuits protects by proper fusing .
    2- ECU needed to control charging current of alternators , and charging rate of TEG .
    3- The system will use electrical compressor .

    -- And whats the best alternator type for this system ??
     
  2. GopherT

    AAC Fanatic!

    Nov 23, 2012
    6,006
    3,762

    You will hopefully learn lots of things by doing this.

    My favorite lesson for you is, will you consume more gasoline with or with our the altinator? In other words, will adding the wind turbine be a more efficient way to turn a generator than a belt and pulley? Hint, if you hold the wind turbine blade in your hand and hold it out the window of a moving car, will your arm be pulled back bt the drag or can you little sister hold it as easily as you can because there is no drag? If there is drag, is it really 'wasted' energy that you are recovering? If there is no drag, are you really recovering any energy?

    Also, think about the conditions you will be driving in, lots of stop and start or freeway? Flat or hills? Hat is the penalty of extra weight vs the benefit of the energy recovered?
     
    DerStrom8 likes this.
  3. ronv

    AAC Fanatic!

    Nov 12, 2008
    3,282
    1,236
    I'm with gopher on the wind generator. It will add more drag than it will produce power.
    You don't say how many TEG's you will use, but you are probably not in danger of over charging your battery with them or the suspension gadget.
    I think I would try just regular alternators and voltage regulators for the braking.
     
  4. MADI1

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 19, 2015
    7
    0
    If the wind turbine will be outside the lines of the vehicle that's right, but the turbine will be inside the front bumper, and will work at high speeds only, If this is a wasted power I can't give a right answer because the project to know just concept and I haven't a practical implementation to the project, in other word in theoretical form I think it will produce power, actually I don't know, What do you think bro. ?

    The main idea to remove the extra loads especially the A/C compressor, it is really a big problem in small engines .

    Thank you too much for the precious feedback :)

    mmm may be I'm wrong with wind turbine, may be right opinion to remove it from the system

    The TEG will cover the hall floor of the vehicle, and here we need two cooling cycles to the hot plate and cold plate .

    Thank you too much for the precious feedback :)
     
  5. alfacliff

    Well-Known Member

    Dec 13, 2013
    2,449
    428
    a wind turbine can be modeled as a solid disk of the same diameter as far as wind drag is concerned. it will create drag even if its inside the car with ducts to the outside.the duct inlets create drag, as much as the turbine itsself, maybe more. if they didnt, it would be free energy, or more power than it used.
     
  6. wayneh

    Expert

    Sep 9, 2010
    12,100
    3,034
    I'm with everyone else - forget the wind turbine. It can only extract energy from moving air. The relative movement of the air ultimately is paid for with engine power.

    Can the TEG not be applied directly to hot engine parts? I've wondered before why you couldn't coat an engine with a TEG. Maybe it would insulate the engine and risk overheating?

    But maybe the exhaust is the correct approach since most of the waste heat from an engine goes out the exhaust and relatively little is dissipated by the engine itself.
     
  7. crutschow

    Expert

    Mar 14, 2008
    13,000
    3,229
    Note that a TEG only works if one end is maintained significantly cooler than the hot end.
    That requires some sort of heat sink or radiator.
     
  8. Dr.killjoy

    Well-Known Member

    Apr 28, 2013
    1,190
    156
    Holy crap !!!!!
    What are trying to save a couple of gallons fuel or extra mpg ???
    The best way to go would be to increase the performance of the motor and reduce drag which can be done .. We had guy on Explorer forum that made a Gen II Explorer go from 16mpg to almost 30mpg with documentation and upgrades ..But anyways I though about years about building a gasoline condenser that would regroup some of the gasoline from the exhaust..
     
  9. DNA Robotics

    Member

    Jun 13, 2014
    123
    26
  10. blocco a spirale

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jun 18, 2008
    1,438
    368
    This is another typically clueless final year engineering project proposal/question.

    Every single one of these ideas requires significant investigation and development on its own... and it sounds like you haven't developed, or even investigated the viability of, any of them. So with all this to do, how do you arrive at these relatively banal questions:

    "-- Now what's the best way to wire these components If needed that :
    1- All circuits protects by proper fusing .
    2- ECU needed to control charging current of alternators , and charging rate of TEG .
    3- The system will use electrical compressor .

    -- And whats the best alternator type for this system ??" ?


    Don't you think that the question of fusing or how to wire the components together, at this stage, is utterly irrelevant and not only irrelevant but impossible to answer?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
    panic mode, nsaspook and KJ6EAD like this.
  11. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
    2,034
    1,638
    couldn't have said it better myself. :(
     
  12. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
    2,034
    1,638
    #1 way to get better fuel mileage is to retune the engine for optimum fuel efficiency not optimal emissions compliance. That alone is good for anywhere from 10% to 40% MPG gains depending on the model age and emissions specs it had to meet when manufactured.

    Capturing waste heat from the exhaust system to produce the vehicles electrical power from TEGs would conceivably be a reasonable way to gain a slight amount of efficiency but really when looked at as a whole the actual electrical power demands on a vehicle make up a negligible amount of fuel usage.

    Regenerative braking is a good way to recover energy but to do so requires two things. One being a energy storage system that can handle having a considerable amount of energy dumped into it quickly and two, an energy conversion method that can take a lot of mechanical energy and convert it into some other form that is storable in a very short time. In a typical sized vehicle that means having a energy conversion and storage system that can work at several to tens of kilowatts conversion rates for short bursts.

    As for suspension energy conversion don't bother. Your vehicles suspension springs and shock absorbers are very efficient at what they do so the overall waste energy to be captured there is not worth the effort. For example take you vehicle and drive it down a rough road for a few miles then get out and feel your shock absorbers.
    Odds are they are only slightly warm at best. Now calculate that temperature rise against the mass of the devices themselves and you will see that you only have a fraction of a HP at most of energy being expended and even that was doing a useful purpose as on keeping your tires on the ground and you under control.
     
    KJ6EAD likes this.
  13. MADI1

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 19, 2015
    7
    0
    Thank you too much for the precious feedback :)

    Even if I coat the engine with TEG, what about the cold side ? It's difficult .

    Any way, Thank you too much for the precious feedback :)

    Yes by using two cooling cycles

    Thank you too much for the precious feedback :)

    We here in study on how to recover every source of wasted power in gasoline vehicle , and these systems can be very useful in future .

    When you come to actual world, of course we will use one system only, and don't need to that much of components, but as a comprehensive study we must cover every way possible .

    Thank you too much for the precious feedback :)

    Thank you too much for the precious feedback :)

    We have many ways to wire them, but I looking for new ideas, that's why I asked " the best way to wire them " and not " How to wire them "
    If I found the better way here, we will forget our own diagram, regardless investigation and development, give a general answer only .

    Any way, Thank you too much for the precious feedback :)

     
  14. blocco a spirale

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jun 18, 2008
    1,438
    368
    The best way to wire what? You haven't presented anything.

    Here's a general answer; the best way to wire them is with wires.
     
  15. MADI1

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 19, 2015
    7
    0
    hhhhhhhhhh :eek:

    I'm sorry if my question doesn't clear enough :rolleyes:

    Let me explain :

    Here you don't need details because the project is really huge to posted details here and my question only about the way of wiring of power and control circuit, don't care about other details .

    Here reformulation the question :

    -- The Main components I need to wire them are :

    - 4 alternators for regenerative suspension system .
    - 2 alternators for regenerative brake system .
    - 1 alternator for wind system - Suppose it's still here ;) -
    - Set of TEG .

    -- The secondary components are :

    - ECUs
    - Wires
    - Relays
    - Fuses .
    -Voltage regulators ... etc

    Now What I need to know from every one is, What he/she think it's the best way to wire them ??

    What does mean the best way ?? Is the way that keep the quantity of secondary component used as low as possible .

    Everyone will have many ways in own mind in very little time, but the experts can make a smart way that doesn't need too much components .

    And because I'm just a student, i get too much component in my way to wire them :rolleyes:

    Thank you :)
     
  16. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
    2,034
    1,638
    Well theres your whole problem right there. The smallest vehicle engine I own is 4.6l and the AC and alternator locked up solid wouldnt waste 15% of my available power.

    The only solution to making crappy little cars better is to melt them down and make bigger vehicles out of them. I have yet to ever meet a person who said they wished they were in a smaller vehicle after having survived an accident. :rolleyes:
     
  17. blocco a spirale

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jun 18, 2008
    1,438
    368

    The whole concept, your design methodology, and therefore your question is flawed. No one can tell you how any of this unspecified, and imaginary, hardware should be "wired" together.


    "Now What I need to know from every one is, What he/she think it's the best way to wire them ??"

    Are you serious? This question is for you to think about, it is your idea and your project. Since you haven't provided any evidence that you have actually done any design work on your own project it appears as though you are inviting everyone else to do it for you.

    if you don't have a clue where to start, why did you choose it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  18. MADI1

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 19, 2015
    7
    0
    That's right, I'm too hate the small cars, but with gasoline prices in Jordan ( over 4.4 $/G ) sometimes you need to purchase one .

    After months of researches and determining the components required and the function of the system. Now in final stage we need to wire them .

    Forget the first question and look at to our introductory wiring to the system :

    [​IMG]

    Now, What do you think about this design ? Can we remove or simplify this design with lesser secondary components ?
     
  19. blocco a spirale

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jun 18, 2008
    1,438
    368
    Perfect, why didn't you post this diagram in the first place?

    I think, this diagram (apart from being very badly drawn) contains no useful information, whatsoever. It depicts a collection of undefined stuff connected by undefined links in a manner that makes no sense; so as a basis for progressing a viable design it is completely worthless.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
    DerStrom8 and KJ6EAD like this.
  20. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
    2,034
    1,638
    Actually trying to pull that motional energy from your suspension is going to make the vehicles ride even worse. It will have the same effect as had you simply added heavier stiffer springs and harder damping shock absorbers to the vehicle which to be honest if small cars weren't already crappy riding making them have suspension as stiff as a empty 4 ton delivery truck will! :(

    If you have access to a golf cart try stuffing the coil springs full of hard wrapped rags or putting hard rubber blocks between the frame and the leaf springs about half way between the axle connection points and the eyes on the end of the leaf springs. Thats what your ride will be like if you try and use that suspension energy for something other than letting the suspension do what it's supposed to do and absorb/control wheel and axle movement.
     
    KJ6EAD likes this.
Loading...