Debate About Vaccinations Heats Up

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Glenn Holland, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. Glenn Holland

    Thread Starter Member

    Dec 26, 2014
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    For the past 6 months, California has been considering vaccinations for measles and the potential effect on children's long term health:

    http://abc7news.com/health/anti-vaxxers-debate-pro-vaccine-bill-in-sacramento/661214/

    Obviously, I am not a doctor or biologist, however there seems to be a mysterious problem with detrimental side effects associated with certain types vaccines. I believe the pharm industry has also received some form of government immunity from lawsuits arising from the side effects of vaccines.
     
  2. #12

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    There seems to be? You believe? About some undefined rumor? Is there a question you had in mind? Are you posting this to get information about your suspicions and beliefs?
     
  3. Glenn Holland

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  4. #12

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    I'm calling B.S.
    This is the kind of subject matter and, "evidence" that Internet Trolls post.
     
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  5. Glenn Holland

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    Dec 26, 2014
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    If the government has in fact given the pharm industry immunity for injuries, there must be hard scientific evidence of a real problem.

    Immunity seems like a military approach (like what the makers of "Agent Orange" got after Vietnam) to dealing with civilians.
     
  6. Lestraveled

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    May 19, 2014
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    The real problem is the hand full of people that would sue the vaccine manufacturers out of existence just to satisfy their avarice. 10,000 people are protected by a vaccine but one person out of 10,000 gets sick and the lawyers go to work. A vaccine manufacturer can not survive without protection against the sue happy lawyers.
     
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  7. Glenn Holland

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    Dec 26, 2014
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    The pharm manufacturer's are only one of many industries that are exposed to product liability and financially ruinous lawsuits, so why should the vaccine makers receive special protection?

    The automobile industry (and car drivers) are the most risky business on the planet (car wrecks kill over 45,000/year) and there are 1000s of lawsuits filed over the resulting deaths and injuries. However they have stayed in business without government immunity from product liability. Although the awards are large, they (and their insurers) have absorbed the cost of liability on their own without government protection.

    Unless, the risk is extraordinarily high, there's no way the pharm industry would be "Sued out of existence" because of a few injuries out of a total of millions of patients.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
  8. #12

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    Well, that is an unexpected development! One person guessed at what the question might be and his answer was entirely refutable.

    Karnak predicts that all answers and explanations will be refuted. :D
     
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  9. shortbus

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    Sep 30, 2009
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  10. Kermit2

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    well then, insurance is the answer.
    if you get hit by another driver THEIR insurance covers your costs. Car makers get sued when lots and lots of vehicles are sold with a known safety defect.
    Lets make vaccination insurance available to cover the unlikely event of sickness from a vaccine. If lots and lots of kids get sick THEN sue the pharm company.

    I swear, save millions or billions of kids from things like polio or diptheria and suddenly someone thinks a few sick kids mean we should just stop altogether and go back to the good 'ol days. Progress? or societal wussification?
     
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  11. wayneh

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    The problem is a poor understanding of risk statistics by humans in general, combined with an utter loss of civic-mindedness in the last couple generations. (Both phenomenon can be traced to failing public schools, but that's another thread.)

    There was a time when assuming a tiny personal risk to help the community at large was a no-brainer decision for most citizens. People stood up as a matter of duty, honor, country. Now, there are many people so selfish that they will not assume ANY risk on behalf of anyone else. That's sickening, but it is their right. A fraction of those people are additionally so skewed that they think they are better off without a vaccination. That's demonstrably wrong.

    You can argue that being ignorant and wrong is also their right, but we don't let drunks drive and their are other precedents where state-mandated behavior trumps the "rights" of the ignorant. Truancy laws come to mind.
     
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  12. joeyd999

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    Jun 6, 2011
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    Sorry about the language -- I can't control the words that come out of their mouths...

     
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  13. Brownout

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    Jan 10, 2012
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    This irrational fear of vaccinations is just another chapter in the new age of fear about anything and everything related to existential institution, knowledge, community or anything else that goes beyond the individual. Fear of government, fear of education, fear of science, fear of society, fear of community, fear of medicine, fear of everyone... It's has nothing to do with a failure of education (just another fear) but with the hordes of fearmongers masquerading as prophets. It correlates with the rise of Fox News, AM talk radio, et. al. It comes in the form of a mind-numbing drumbeat repudiation of any known intelligence or educated or specialized knowledge. Once the fearmongers tear down the fabric of our collective intelligence, they'll have a path to indoctrinate the population to their own way of thinking.

    https://gma.yahoo.com/mom-gives-anti-vax-stance-just-7-children-220208357--abc-news-wellness.html
     
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  14. #12

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  15. nsaspook

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    Not a right-wing wacko thing. The major cities here are about the most Hippy left areas since the 60's but Oregon is a hot bed of the anti-vax movement in the west. The Kennedy kook is the leader on the east.
    It's a completely strange bipartisan belief.
     
  16. justtrying

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    Mar 9, 2011
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    from the WHO http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

    measles is deadly in 3rd world countries. There was an outbreak in California recently, I don't really want to ask, but how many affected died?

    Is the drop in mortality to be attributed to vaccines, or to better standard of living?

    I am not one to bash vaccines (except for the flu) for no reason, but solid science is necessary. Vaccines have proven to fail in the claims of lifetime immunity. Mumps is an excellent example, and while mumps has mild effects in childhood, it can have much more severe complications if caught as an adolescent or adult. It is known now that mumps vaccine does not offer life time immunity.

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-the-untold-story-of-measles

    Nothing is settled on safety of vaccines. I find it disturbing that one cannot obtain information on what claims are settled by vaccine producers out of court.

    Latest example is attempt to introduce Gardasil to vaccinate underage girls against HPV virus. I can go on about this.

    It is sad that this topic (like climate change) does not lend itself to an educated discussion. It is even worse because a lot of money is at stake.
     
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  17. Brownout

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    I don't mean to pick on you, I enjoy reading your posts and generally agree with you. But the above text is false. Mumps can have a devastating effect on children who get the infection. Before vaccination, mumps were the leading cause of meningitis and acquired deafness in children. source: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/11/1458.full Meningitis is believed to be the "brain feaver" that left Helen Keller deaf and blind. source: http://www.biography.com/people/helen-keller-9361967#early-life Vaccinations have had a tremendous effect in decreasing infection (see graph below, from 1st reference) As importantly, better immunization methods continue to shrink occur3nces of the infection in children.

    Unfortunately, by telling just a part of the story, it can appear that the vaccine offers little value and can thus be eliminated, instead of demonstrating the fact that this vaccine (and others) are a very important part of public health. Sure, some outbreaks occur in vaccinated populations, but why would anyone not desire the major effects in reducing terrible health effects on children?

    Mumps.JPG
     
  18. justtrying

    Active Member

    Mar 9, 2011
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    That is fine. I always appreciate more information. I have no opinion on vaccines as of now simply because full information is not available to the public. There are various ways of administering vaccines and some research is showing that how it is done will also have an impact - for example MMR vs MMRV. I would not say that our immunization methods have become better.

    you might find this interesting - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8096942

    and just saw this http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brain-dama...u-vaccine-get-60-million-compensation-1438572
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
  19. wayneh

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    Correlation says nothing about causality. Otherwise you might say iPods caused the whole thing.
     
  20. Brownout

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    Never claimed that it did. However, iPods aren't inherently prone to spread paranoia, except for fearmongering blogs. This programming I mentioned are.
     
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