Counterfeit components

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by R!f@@, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. R!f@@

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 2, 2009
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    Hey guys.
    A journey I took very recently

    [​IMG]

    The Picture shows a 21" Philips TV. This belong to some relative of a good friend of mine, who is same field as I am. But he is a little down in TV trouble shooting. I think he is scared of HV.
    Anyways, he called me and asked for my help so I went and it took a few hrs before I realize wht the problem was. I never take too much time to fix TV, but this blew my mind.
    Another thing is tht I have fixed TV's of the same type with the same issue, but this thing was giving me too much trouble

    Initially the problem was a blown H-OUT, a BUT11AX. He replaced it and the set does not seem to power up. My checking revealed the sync shutting down, and the supply sagging. So naturally I assumed it was Flyback fault. Told him to get a new one and it will be OK.
    Next day he called, I went and still the same with new flyback. But this time supply sagging was not as it was before.

    Instead sync is too weak to start the horizontal. And of course this lead me to a leaky horizontal sync coupling cap. Replaced and viola.

    The TV came to life.
    After around 15secs, the TV started squeaking. The noise of horizontal or supply shutting down due to over load. Checked the tube, TV is dead.
    I touched the sinks and the H-OUT sink can boil water.
    Damn it...transistor blew. So hurried and bought another but this time I did not kept it powered up , instead I held the H-OUT between my fingers to check for heat. Powered up and this thing heats up in seconds.

    So I have to keep shutting down and checking to prevent the H-OUT from blowing.
    So as usual I checked every single component tht could heat up the H-OUT and found nothing...Checked the supply and found it was at 125VDC. To my knowledge a 21" Philips usually has a B+ of 95VDC.

    Which even made me more confused. Cause I though the high B+ is causing the heat up.
    Now it's time to check the service manual. I have almost all the Hitachi and Philips service manuals tht came out at the beginning of the LCD era.
    So I have around 25GB of schemas, but could not find the one I was looking for. So I searched for a similar chassis. Found something close enuf with the numbering and all.
    This schema shows all the part numbers and components exactly and also has the after market modification shown.
    The supply is 95VDC. HA!! I though, high supply.

    So fiddled around the feed back and found a way to lower the B+ by increasing opto feedback.
    Did it, satisfied and powered up. The Picture came with a limited horizontal width ( an indication of low B+) and went blank.

    I was like ...:eek: What the.......
    Now what.

    Again switched off and on, over and over, still the same.

    Poked around, when on. All Voltages are OK, assuming a B+ of 95VDC. But why tht small H-width. This does not make sense. A lot of useless Hrs passed with my head banging on it.

    Finally decided to increase the B+ to see the width effect. But first touched the H-OUT sink, it was hot, not warm.
    It didn't blew, so I thought I will increase the B+ to it's original value.
    So fixed the feedback, powered up and guess what. Width was OK. Good picture, and then, Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeck!!! :confused:

    Touched the H-OUT, it was boiling. Checked again, shorted.
    So, now thinking that the previous leaky cap was the culprit in the first place and H-OUT is blowing due to a faulty new DOA flyback, I put the old FBT back, bought a new H-OUT and powered up.

    Nice picture and then ..Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeck!!

    Aye! yai! yaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!


    That's the third one.
    Blowing without a reason I can think off.
    I got pissed off, so took a break and next I decided to find the fault by soldering a bad ASS H-OUT, like 250W, 25A ones tht I had, which are used in Hi-def monitors earlier. So by the time this one blows I can get a descent amount of minutes to probe the PCB.
    So, going thru my item I found a 14"Sony H-OUT, 2SD1877, which is a different package but has close rating as the BUT11.
    Switching H-OUTs is not a problem for me. So I thought instead of blowing a big one, I will first try with this, as I had plenty of it.

    Next day, I soldered it and had it between my fingers. I powered up.
    TV came to life and stayed,

    Guess what. This H-OUT is not even mounted on the heat sink but between my fingers and yet it is only warm. Minutes passed by, B+ at 124VDC and, stable picture and a cool H-OUT.
    Replaced the Old FBT, this guy too was OK but a little leaky as I can here the static discharge but works.

    So I mounted the D1877 instead of the BUT11.
    TV is good as new.
    Below are the ones tht gave me this whole trouble

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
    Rick Martin likes this.
  2. R!f@@

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 2, 2009
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    Me and my friend are well known and the store tht sold the components, "Linear Electronics" is the name and the only shop that sells vast no. of components in Male. Maldives

    He bought the transistors from them, one after the other.

    My question is who is to blame.

    The one tht makes counterfeit components or the one who sells them, even though he knows tht they are fake. Which mostly are bought from Bangkok, China..I think. Cheap components sold with a profit makes everyone day.

    As all the Maldivian sellers do.

    As for Me, I don't buy semiconductors from them any more. Instead I get them from USA, Digikey or Mouser.
    Direct from the source. It is expensive but they are worth the money

    {ED}
    By the way, our Philips and Hitachi "Authorized" service centers know as, " STO Electronics " sells the same stuff. Yet they boldly say their components are expensive for the fact they get it from the factory. But I did worked with them for a few days to learn about the truth that goes inside that company which has misled the people always
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  3. debe

    Well-Known Member

    Sep 21, 2010
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    I do sympathise R!f@@, nothing worse than a job made harder with faulty new components. Daryl
     
  4. radiohead

    Active Member

    May 28, 2009
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    You're one helluva tech, R!f@@. My only TV fix was when I found a 26" Zenith next to a dumpster, took the back off, and did a sniff test. Nothing smelled wrong. Checked the fuse next to the bridge...blown. Replaced the fuse. For less than 50 cents, I have a perfectly working TV. Have had it since 2002!
     
  5. thatoneguy

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 19, 2009
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    That would totally suck.

    Best way to prevent them from going forward causing more headaches is to let everybody know who/when/where/what, as you just did.
     
  6. R!f@@

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 2, 2009
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    U know what.
    I will show the owner this thread and every one I bump into.
     
  7. thatoneguy

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 19, 2009
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    Add it to your blog too. A condensed version.
     
  8. radiohead

    Active Member

    May 28, 2009
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    You really put a lot of work into figuring out that problem. Maybe you should contact Philips to see if they would be interested in pursuing the counterfieters. They can be hard to find and very expensive to prosecute, being in China and all...
     
  9. R!f@@

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

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    If I am to contact Philips, do u think they will be interested in this.
    I don't think so. What I do is for me and for me only. It is actually what I do tht makes me unique here.

    I just thought to share these kinda things with the good folks of AAC. Nothing to be too concerned about though.

    It's nothing to do with Philips. OK. the STO part has everything to do with them, during my time there, I juggled a lot of things between the MD's and Managers. I just did not fix the items tht were laying there for years. As a result I got the guy who was running these operations fired. He was a long term employee, but I couldn't care less abt corrupt and cheating Managers.
    It was because of me he got fired and yet they have employed under qualified techs in there "Authorized" service centers.

    They even donno how to use the compair unit that Philips has sent them to trouble shoot their items. Yet they brag abt everything.
    When I went there, I have to find the compair unit. A cable was there, adapter was somewhere else. It was just lying in the junk.
    I was the one tht got the unit hooked up to a PC and started to navigate thru I2C bus of Philips items and started finding software related faults from TV's and DVD Players that was sold all thru out the last decade.

    Tht reminds me..I have a funny story relating to the IT professionals of STO then. This came up when I tried to hook up the compair to a PC and the PC had problems. I got the IT's attention too. But this story is for another time.

    I believe all of u know abt the compair unit. It is USB device that hooks up to the PC. Philips has a software to navigate thru the NVRAM of almost all their products. The unit has a serial connection to the TV or DVD or whatever the item is and can find error logs and recorded faults.
    Makes fixing a breeze and fun. The software tells what to replace when a fault is seen. Pretty powerful.
    I haven;t been able to find one out in the market yet. But I did saw one years back in ebay, but then I have no way of buying it. not like now.

    Now they just fix the old fashion way. If an item comes for repair, they will get a new one from the store or mostly they have working items in the workshop. They start to swap components and boards until the item is fixed and charges thru the roof.
    And claims tht Philips parts are expensive to the customer.
    Under warranty is totally another story.....

    And if they do not have an identical item, then it is delayed due to the Philips not having spares in the near future.....

    this goes on and on....
     
  10. eblc1388

    Senior Member

    Nov 28, 2008
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    You have replaced the 32W 1000V/450V BUT11AX by a 50W 1500V/800V D1877 and the TV seems not to fail any more.

    Based on this and you come to the conclusion that BUT11AXs are fake?

    One can only be sure that those BUT11AXs you have your hands on were fake if you have replaced the faulty transistor with a genuine BUT11AX and the TV works without problem.
     
  11. R!f@@

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

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    They both are around 5A Ic. Even though the package is different, the amount of heat build and the time it takes tells me the BUT's are fake.
    An H-OUT should always be able to touch during normal operation, if u cannot keep ur hands on the sink then it is bound to fail soon. I speak from experience.
     
  12. schmitt trigger

    Active Member

    Jul 12, 2010
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    If you google "counterfeit components" you'll get thousands and thousands of hits. This is an extremely common problem nowdays, and several companies have suffered mightly. The most famous case is the electrolytic capacitors in Dell computers.... it costed the company over US$ 300 million.
     
  13. marshallf3

    Well-Known Member

    Jul 26, 2010
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  14. tom66

    Senior Member

    May 9, 2009
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    I had a failed ATX power supply which took out a motherboard due to high voltage spikes on the 12V rail (>20V.) Luckily HDD, RAM, ODD and CPU all survived. Opened it up and the caps were faulty, probably the cause of the spikes. Obviously the "over voltage protection" was a plain old lie.
     
  15. thatoneguy

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 19, 2009
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    Same here. Not just motherboards, either, though they were the hardest hit. It went on for YEARS before actual analysis was done and the culprits outed. Prior to that, everybody was scratching their head, putting in way overrated caps, etc. The huge Dell recall finally got the word out to most everybody.

    I suppose the upshot to all of it that low cost ESR meters became widely available and lower cost (Such as the Blue ESR Meter). The first thing I check on ANY failed piece of equipment is the ESR of the caps. If you repair stuff, having an LCR Meter or at least ESR meter is a must.
     
  16. marshallf3

    Well-Known Member

    Jul 26, 2010
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    Sad thing was the new components would test perfectly good, it took time before the defective electrolytic formula started to take tis toll.

    Another reason I'm a bit leery of electrolytics you get in those surprise boxes.

    If you study more on Google you'll start to see some brand names mentioned that were the most likely candidates.
     
  17. R!f@@

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 2, 2009
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    But I had to admit I had my fair share of payment due to dead mobo's
     
  18. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    It's very important that you give feedback to both the manufacturer of the consumer product, and the manufacturer of the component device.

    This can save both of them a considerable amount of money, not to mention end-user/consumer inconvenience and expense.

    Try to simply relate all of the facts about the incident; their engineers will appreciate that. Begin your report with a concise summary, which includes the model and serial number of the consumer product, approximate date of purchase, and the reference designator, part number and other markings on the part (especially the date and mfg site codes) that caused the failure. If you don't know what the date and mfg site codes are, then include all of the markings on the failed device, exactly how they are shown.
     
  19. maxpower097

    Well-Known Member

    Feb 20, 2009
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    Not yet but may be tomorrow. :) Till then its still Tailand.
     
  20. R!f@@

    Thread Starter AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 2, 2009
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    Really .
    Had to see the components are still with him.
    Sgt. can u please draft something for me as time permits. As I have never bothered to do these kinda complains/reports

    w
     
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