Changing Hertz form 60 to 50 on 220v

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Malinourn, Apr 5, 2008.

  1. Malinourn

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
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    Hello is there a circut or device one can install to change 220v 60 cycle to 220v 50 cycle Hertz? Thank you for any help that can be managed.
     
  2. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    What kind of power output do you need?

    Off the top of my head, one way would be to rectify the 220V 60Hz to DC, and then use an inverter circuit to create the 50Hz 220V sinewave output.

    Another way would be to use a 220V 60Hz motor to drive a 220V 50Hz alternator.

    Neither way would be 100% efficient.
     
  3. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    What is the reason you need to change the frequency? Most equipment is insensitive to the 50/60 Hz difference.
     
  4. Malinourn

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
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    This is needs to be regulated since I have a hemogenizer, viscosometer, and ph meter from china. I need to adjust my house hold hertz so I dont burn out the equipment sincer 10 hertz is more then the allotted 3% varience
     
  5. S_lannan

    Active Member

    Jun 20, 2007
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    maybe you could ask the guys at the power station to slow down the turbines 10hz? if you ask nicely enough they might :p
     
  6. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    OK. What is the total power requirement of the items you need to run from 220V 50Hz?
     
  7. jpanhalt

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jan 18, 2008
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    Are these being used commercially in a regulated industry, as in a medical lab, or for hobby/non-regulated. If it is the latter, I would surprised it the pH meter would not work at 60Hz. They are low current, DC devices fundamentally. So, there is probably only a small transformer inside. If you are in a regulated industry, the regulators (e.g., FDA) may not let you use the instruments regardless of what you do for frequency.

    Does the viscometer use a spinning disk or rod and measure torque? I assume the homogenizer is like a blender, and not a shaker. If those assumptions are correct, then you have two, fractional HP motors to deal with. The homogenizer speed is probably not critical. The viscometer speed will affect the results, but developing a new calibration curve is probably easier and a lot cheaper than doing the frequency shift.

    It is possible that the frequency tolerance you were given has more to do with calibration accuracy than with whether the instruments will function or not (after recalibration, of course).

    If you really want an off-the-shelf frequency changer, though, consider a variable frequency drive (VFD). They can often be had for less than $200 on ebay. Most will produce 3 phase, but I don't know why you couldn't just use one of the phases to run those small motors. You might want to check to see if the other phases need a load, though. There may also be single-phase units available. Search on VFD. John

    Edit: Just checked ebay. There are several FHP drives for reasonable prices. One is 1/2 HP at $99 buy it now, new, single-phase input, 3-phase output. The others have current bid prices even less.
     
  8. Malinourn

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
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    Thank you one and all who are providing intellegent answers. Thank you jpanhalt. If anyone has further ideas on solving this problem thank you. Yes the viscometer uses spinning disk and the pha meter uses a low current dc device so perhaps I could change that out. Of course I still need to deal with the mixers and hemogenizers.

    The next part might be offensive to those who left negative comment. Oh, its clean.

    Now to the others. Don't forget your american cars are not completely made in the USA parts are global. You might as well get rid of lets say 90% of your house hold electronics since that comes from asia. Oh also its great to be an american in Canada Mexico and Brazil as well. You know North America, Central America and South America. Just to top it off for those of you who don't think I've respect for this country well I'm a vetrian of Desert Storm, and one more thing my wife is from mainland China and She married a USA Guy and she is starting a USA business and oh yes it cost us 60% less to buy over seas. This way we can afford to start production here in the USA makeing money for People in the USA providing Jobs for People in the UM USA by a chinese chemist for shame on her for using the American (USA) way.
     
  9. Malinourn

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
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    To Sgt Wookie the total requirement at any one time will be less then 30 amps. I'm working with and electrician to be sure this doesn't have any problems in the long or short run. For those items that dont run on dc conversion they need about 220 v running 50 cycles. Thank you.
     
  10. scubasteve_911

    Senior Member

    Dec 27, 2007
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    IMHO,

    I believe that people are extremely unfair when it comes to judging product from other countries, such as China, Brazil, etc. I think that this is spawned from the threat that they have on our industry, not their actual quality. Building up negativity and spouting propoganda towards the quality of product and hazards is a way of securing our future as producers and as a country as a whole..

    It is time to realize that our success is the result of another's suffering. A lot of very decent and much more labouring individuals are getting paid peanuts and perhaps it is time to share the wealth that we have. Hopefully, the world, as a whole will be equal and human suffering is kept to a minimum. So what if we aren't driving ferraris and owning cottages, etc.? I think people struggle too much these days to buy a lot of stuff they don't really need, there should be other ways to happiness !

    Steve
     
  11. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    OK, since you're going to need that much power, I would go with the variable frequency drive suggestion. You'll need a unit capable of driving at least an 8.9HP motor. It would be much more efficient and reliable than attempting to build something yourself.
    1 HP ~= 745.7 Watts
    220V x 30 Amps = 6,600 Watts

    I've seen them on Ebay as well, going for quite reasonable prices.

    Thank you for your Service and sacrifices.

    [eta]
    Found this one:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/15-hp-VFD-Varia...ryZ71393QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
    Ends 1900 HRS PDT Sunday.

    Do you have 3-phase power available? If you're in a residence, that would be highly unlikely.
    Make sure before bidding that the unit will provide rated output with 1-phase input. Some VFD's that are normally 3-ph input can run on 1-ph, but at a reduced output. You really don't want that, as you'll pay a lot extra.

    Don't be taken aback by the price. That VFD will be a lot more efficient than something you could build at home, without spending a lot of time and money on. With the cost of energy nowadays, you would rapidly spend far more on your electric bill than you would have if you'd bought a well-made commercial unit.
     
  12. jpanhalt

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jan 18, 2008
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    Frankly, I am surprised by the power needs. They must be for your new business. I was thinking of smaller analytical equipment.

    Just a tidbit about 3-phase. In many commercial settings, 3-phase is essentially all that is available. It is split as suggested so that all of the single phase equip runs on just one or other leg of the 3-phase. That works well, except for a couple of small and usually insignificant details. Split 3-phase may not be 220V, it's often just 208V. Not a big difference, but it can affect some equipment. Second, for sensitive analytical equipment like chromatographs and spectrometers, I always insisted that the instrument, detectors, recorders, etc. be on the same leg.

    John
     
  13. Malinourn

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
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    ok, as far as power goes my total horse power needs aren't more then lets say 2 hp and that is high I do believe.

    So, if that information will modify the situation please let me know. These are table top units for laboratory scale production. I actually bought on ebay a 1hp hemogenizer for a great price for when we increase production. And for all you ultra pats. Yes that is made in the US of A.
     
  14. SgtWookie

    Expert

    Jul 17, 2007
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    So, now it's roughly 6.8 amps, or about 1500 Watts? That's quite a difference from what was being talked about before!

    Let's do this: What is the actual combined wattage rating for each piece of equipment that you want to run?

    Naturally, you'd want some excess capacity. Running things right at the bleeding edge is normally counterproductive. OTOH, going overboard with capacity will cost you.

    Are these all inductive loads? By inductive, I mean motors, transformers, that kind of thing.

    Along the DIY train of thought:
    Have you ever done any computer programming?
    Do you have tools?
    Can you solder, read schematics?
     
  15. Malinourn

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
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    hello, unfortunatly I cant give the horse power since it doesn't seem to be listed on equipment. But judging from the size of the caseings the motors can't be more then 1/2h and that is being generious. There would be a total of 3 motors of that size or smaller. One motor I know has an inititial wattage load of 510 at start and then a sustained 300w. The other motors wouldn't be any more then that. Then the other devices are much smaller and wouldn't even have a horse power rating.

    For of the items would have an inductive load. 1 counter top hemogenizer 2 counter top mixers and 1 viscometer.

    2 other devices have stransformers the scale and the ph meter.

    DIY programming limited to early basic.
    Electronic tools yes - used them yes
    can I reasemble an electric motor yes or a computer yes.
    Solder yes
    read schematics um yes use to do drafting.

    thank you.
     
  16. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    I wonder how easy it might be to get an alternator without the drive engine. With the correct pulleys, a two or three horse motor could turn the alternator at 3000 RPM to make 50 Hz electricity. It should be possible, but possibly not economical.
     
  17. jpanhalt

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jan 18, 2008
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    The alternator is certainly one way, but the results for the viscometer will be dependent on the frequency (I think). I would rather have a constant, but wrong frequency than a almost correct, but varying frequency. The alternator approach may vary with load. The former situation can be calibrated, the latter cannot be calibrated to the same precision.

    I once had a 50Hz lathe motor (2 HP?) that worked on 60 Hz just fine, except it got a little warmer. I think the best and cheapest bet is to see which devices really do need 50Hz. It is not an issue of voiding warranties, as I assume there are none, and recalibration can resolve a lot of differences. Worst case, you may end up replacing a FHP motor with a 60 Hz metric size.

    I would look for a safe way to test each motor driven device. That might be as simple as an additional fuse in-line of marginal capacity -- just enough to get the device running under no load. If it doesn't get too hot, add load and see what happens.

    John
     
  18. Malinourn

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
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    Hi unforntunatly SGt wookie I can't give precise hp since its not on the plates but I can compare to the usa units I have in regards to size and guess. So that is why I believe 2hp.

    and to the diy questions programing no all the rest yes. could I get help with programmin oh most certainly.
     
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