Black Holes

Discussion in 'Physics' started by Brainteaser, Jan 22, 2008.

  1. Brainteaser

    Thread Starter New Member

    Dec 26, 2007
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    According to scientists latest research if something goes inside the black hole its mass is destroyed.But according to law of conservation of mass "mass is neither created nor destroyed but it changes from one form to another".In the black hole mass is only destroyed it cancels the Law.How can it be?:confused: i also have one more question.What happens when something goes in the black hole?
     
  2. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    From the wikipedia article...
    "The law of mass/matter conservation may be considered as an approximate physical law that holds only in the classical sense before the advent of special relativity and quantum mechanics."

    Read up son!
     
  3. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    It is confusing even to consider it purely from a classical sense because energy goes in, but nothing comes out! Or so it seemed at the time, Hawking Radiation perhaps?

    Dave
     
  4. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    The mass is not destroyed, but removed from the observable universe. Black holes get their character from the acquisition of mass. The additional mass just makes them "blacker", in the sense that the gravitational radius gets larger.
     
  5. cumesoftware

    Senior Member

    Apr 27, 2007
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    Indeed. But some of it is ejected, and some other is emitted a form of energy known as the Hawkins radiation. Nevertheless, the mass that it is absorbed doesn't cease to exist. As beenthere said, it is now part of the black hole itself. A black hole is nothing more than a chunk of super concentrated mass. Think of it as giant nucleus, since the force of gravity is so massive that overcame the repulsive forces created by the surrounding electrons of the individual atoms.
     
  6. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    But doesn't the rules of relativity and quantum mechanics breakdown at the event horizon? Therefore in essence why should the conservation of energy hold? I'm not saying it doesn't just posing a conjecture.

    Dave
     
  7. jonkopp

    Member

    Jan 17, 2008
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    I don't think that anyone can make anything more than an educated guess as to what happens past the event horizon. The internals are unobservable, therefore only the external symptoms of the system can be used to decern data on what is happening. Nothing observable suggests that any laws are being broken. Stuff goes in, it gets really small, this causes the total system's effective field to increase. The system jets out super particles and absorbs practically everything else. The system either finds an equalibrium, or it dies a dramatic death. I don't see where the scientist find the BreakDown.
     
  8. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    I think they are talking about the mathematical breakdown because of infinities in the calculations at the singularity.

    Dave
     
  9. jonkopp

    Member

    Jan 17, 2008
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    But the particles are approaching zero mass, which means it never achieves zero. So the outcome would be that the values would be approaching infinite, but not necessarily achieving it. So I could see that we could have a resolution issue in our math systems, but I don't think these questions contain impossibles.
     
  10. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    You're probably right. From what I remember from my musings of this subject, many moons ago, was that at the singularity there were infinities which rendered the equations unsolvable - in essence a mathematical breakdown at the event horizon of the mathematics underpinning classical physics (Relativity and quantum).

    Dave
     
  11. uzair

    Active Member

    Dec 26, 2007
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    Anyone has not actually seen that "black hole".I think that all of them are assumptions and no authentic experimental data has not yet been collected.Right?

    But as they say,"Imagination is more important than anything else", so we can look upto the scientists for further analysis.
     
  12. Brainteaser

    Thread Starter New Member

    Dec 26, 2007
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    I got an answer from another site.A scientisit who himself is researching on black holes gave this answer.It says that there is another hole called white hole.The white is just opposite to black i.e. black hole sucks things inside and white hole spits things out.If something goes in the black hole it starts travelling from black hole to white hole with ultra fast speed in the form of energy.And after about a thousand years it gets out of the white hole.

    If Black hole=B and White hole=W

    than it will be like this,

    >B>==========>W>





    Read up grandpa!The classiacal law is still in one piece.
     
  13. thingmaker3

    Retired Moderator

    May 16, 2005
    5,072
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    Whey you call Papabravo "grandpa," you mean to compliment him on his wisdom and knowledge gained through years of hard work, yes? It is a term of endearment and respect, I trust?
     
  14. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    Can I remind members about Rule 1. Keep it civil.

    Dave
     
  15. Brainteaser

    Thread Starter New Member

    Dec 26, 2007
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    I called papabravo grandpa because:

    1)My friend who is also a member of this site told me that papabravo is of my grandpa's age.

    2)Due to respect.

    3)Calling someone grandpa isnt a bad thing.



    And about identifying the scientist i dont know about his real name or something else. The only thing i know about him is that he lives in USA his username is blackmars and he says he is a scientist.
     
  16. Papabravo

    Expert

    Feb 24, 2006
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    You are quite correct that classical physics still works. It breaks down at high speeds, small scales, and in heavy gravitational fields. All modern theories of physics are required to be consistent with "the classical limit". There is so much stuff to read out there one could make a career out of it. Hmmmm...I guess I have.
     
  17. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    Stephen Hawkings discussed them in his review "Black Holes and Thermodynamics" from the late 70s. I think he has become an advocate for the White Hole as a time reversal of the Black Hole and even that they are one and the same in certain quantum conditions.

    I know (vaguely) about them through the work of Hawkings.

    Dave
     
  18. alpha-libri

    New Member

    Jan 26, 2008
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    It may seem like cheating, but you can duck the whole question by adopting the strict positivist point of view. If something is non-observable in principle, then any question you may ask about it is simply a waste of time. This is also the point of view adopted in quantum mechanics. What happens to an electron when it's flipping between quantum states? No way of knowing or even finding out. So the question isn't even asked.
     
  19. Dave

    Retired Moderator

    Nov 17, 2003
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    If you can get access see: http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v13/i2/p191_1

    He mentions it here.

    Dave
     
  20. Brainteaser

    Thread Starter New Member

    Dec 26, 2007
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    Right now the discovery of white hole is very recent. So it can not be found by searching for "white hole" or by surfing net. I myself was referred to the site where i found cites about white hole.


    And i have another question in mind. Everyone says that law of conservation of mass is approximately right. Can i know where and why is it not applied?
     
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