The Earths CLIMATE has become colder(ice-age) and warmer, repeatedly throughout history.

We only began using "fossil" fuels a little over 200 hundred years ago.

If the Earth has had cooling and warming cycles long before humans even existed, how can anyone believe that WE are the cause of climate change?

Because the changes were seeing are way way way faster then has ever been recorded without a natural disaster like a meteor hit. What the last ice age took 10,000 years to do, were gonna have done in under 200, but that number keeps dropping every year. Look at FL winter this year. We had 50 hours under 45f. Thats it. Never even froze. World wide march broke 7,725 weather records. My gardens overridden with leaf miners because the winter didn't knock em back but it did knock their predators back. So the farms and gardens are infested wth them till the wasp families populations build up. I've grown here my whole life and this is the second time I've seen leaf miners, and before it was 1 plant. Their tearing up my squash, basil, tomatoes, cantalope, peppers,etc....... Climate change is fact, we caused it because no volcano's blew and no meteors hit in the last 100 years. So its obviously our fault. Also explain the 800% increase in melanoma in people ages 18-35. I bring this up because my brother just had a surgery on his back removing a lot of it last month, and my mother just had it removed last week. Other then that we have no history of cancer in our families.

 

Of course, people living in Texas, USA and Alberta, Canada have their own reasons for denying peak oil and climate change.

we certainly enjoy our gas guzzling pickups up here on the northern edge of the great plains, but I don't get your inference. Are you suggesting that because we extract, that we are cause of an exponential consumerism that is required to maintain the current standard of living within a commerce driven economy? Are you suggesting that dividing modern civilization into individual entities would conclude thier miniscule contribution equate to innocence? Being an Albertian, I'm concerned about the footprint in a ruggedly beautiful part of the world. If you need to fill up your car every week, I think your barking up the wrong tree.

 

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. What is your point?
My point is that the best place for fossil fuel is to leave it in the ground.

 

my point is in flushing out your accusation of ignorance pointed toward the populace of a resource based economy, who's resource has fueled the modern world's economic machine. If our unabashed consumptive habits have generated undesirable effects, blame us for who we are, but to insinuate that the supplier of a resource implies guilt in poor consumptive habits is a bit of a stretch.

I would be real interested in where your thoughts lie into how open pit mining or SAGD injection processes have contributed to climate change. It would also be very interesting to hear your thoughts on how the concept of 'peak oil' should influences tar sands extraction here in Alberta.

 

Very simple.

Our resource extraction economics places financial gain over and above environmental and health issues. Furthermore, the financial gain does not include future cost to both the environment and health care.

CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere has been at 282ppm for hundreds of thousands of years. This has risen to 394ppm over the last 200 years and it is rising at an exponential rate. The science is unequivocal. We burn fossil fuel at our peril.

 

...resource based economy, who's resource has fueled the modern world's economic machine.

Don't be so smug with world economics. It is clearly a ponzi scheme. It is unsustainable and will soon come crashing down.

We are on our own Titanic. We sail full steam ahead into uncharted waters and ignore the definite signs of dangers ahead. There is only one word that describes our behavior: arrogance.

 

Yet today in the US a persons life expectancy is much longer than just one hundred years ago.

Pollution is a problem, but not the HUGE problem I am constantly being told it is. Here in Houston, twenty or thirty years ago, all you could smell was the petrochemical industries out gassings. Now you can't tell they even exist by the smell or haze in the air. Things ARE getting better in small steps, despite the occasional 'spill' here and there.

Oil will be with us for many many more years. We can only hope that the small increments of environmental impact improvement continue.

Your not taking into account the advances in medicine and food distribution. Thats the only reason our life expectancy is longer. The fact is were not treating cancer with leaches anymore.

 

Don't worry guys, we will kill ourselves long before we kill the planet. And I doubt we will die of melanoma or from breathing smog; my bet is that we starve to death when our currency house of cards fails us and we don't know how to feed ourselves without gasoline.

 

Very simple.

Our resource extraction economics places financial gain over and above environmental and health issues. Furthermore, the financial gain does not include future cost to both the environment and health care.

CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere has been at 282ppm for hundreds of thousands of years. This has risen to 394ppm over the last 200 years and it is rising at an exponential rate. The science is unequivocal. We burn fossil fuel at our peril.

And if anyone wants proof on this just look at the changes to environmental protection Gov Rick Scott made his first year in office. Its all for big biz and raping the environment.

 

We burn fossil fuel at our peril.

There is only one word that describes our behavior: arrogance

So are you from Texas, or Alberta?

 

Don't worry guys, we will kill ourselves long before we kill the planet. And I doubt we will die of melanoma or from breathing smog; my bet is that we starve to death when our currency house of cards fails us and we don't know how to feed ourselves without gasoline.

Some will, some won't, an MIT think tank said we have till 2030 till we can't support ourselves anymore and the starvation will start.

 

Some will, some won't, an MIT think tank said we have till 2030 till we can't support ourselves anymore and the starvation will start.

Don't get me wrong, I think that there's plenty of real estate to grow food to support us all, but we're not smart enough to utilize it. I don't buy into those studies that show that we're consuming >100% of the available resources each year, etc.
We rely on some secondary skill that gets us food, farming by proxy. One day (economic collapse) those skills suddenly won't mean anything, and growing one's own food will mean everything. That's when everybody will starve.

(except you, obviously, mr greenthumbs)

 

It'll take a pretty big economic collapse for people to starve.

I'm not sure how the world war and the Great War affected you guys in America, but certainly the Great War resulted in some towns and villages having no adults males at all. Yet we managed to recover.

During the World War most of the country was bombed to nearly nothing, and yet the economy survived, and although there was a big 'dig for victory' program, people in cities and towns were still very reliant on food from the farms.

Okay, these two examples aren't entirely economic, but they do show that despite our ability to down-play human resiliance, we can cope pretty well with major disasters.

 

It'll take a pretty big economic collapse for people to starve.

I'm not sure how the world war and the Great War affected you guys in America, but certainly the Great War resulted in some towns and villages having no adults males at all. Yet we managed to recover.

During the World War most of the country was bombed to nearly nothing, and yet the economy survived, and although there was a big 'dig for victory' program, people in cities and towns were still very reliant on food from the farms.

Okay, these two examples aren't entirely economic, but they do show that despite our ability to down-play human resiliance, we can cope pretty well with major disasters.

I hear you, and people have said the same about America, we went through the Great Depression in the '30s. The difference between then and now, is that then, a much greater percentage of people were involved in agriculture, or had some limited agricultural skills, or at least knew somebody in one of those 2 categories. Only 2% of the population claimed tax returns for agriculture last year. 2% of the people are feeding the other 98%. In 2012 in America, some people literally think peaches come from a can. We've "advanced" to the point where the food no longer lies right outside everybody's city limits; People are getting their food from the other side of the country or the other side of the world. These things were not true, or were at least not the norm, in the last great depression. This one will pan out much differently i fear.

 

You guys are counting how much food we import, and economic collapse, loss of farmable land, climate change, and population boom.

 

You guys are counting how much food we import, and economic collapse, loss of farmable land, climate change, and population boom.

I read that 5X and I still don't know what you're saying.

 

Have you ever considered how bummed you will be if your predictions fall flat on their face? You keep going on about it, but understand that you are a very small minority with this point of view. I place this firmly as I would most conspiracy theories.

I do not believe there will be a collapse, most people don't. If I'm wrong I will suffer the consequences along with billions of other people. Fact is, we'll squeak by because it is in our interest to.

I'll be honest, it is tiresome, if it happens or not there is nothing you or I can do about it. But lets go over what happens if civilization does collapse.

Forget medicine and luxuries like electricity, making tools and appliances takes civilization. Electronics even more so. You will have them for a while, but things wear out and can not be replaced.

If you want to see the life style you will strive to achieve think the old west, where a black smith fabricated everything from iron. You can have electricity in small doses, from batteries and what not, but the large scales we are used to will be gone.

You will have to fight to keep what you have, and you probably will not win. You would be outnumbered thousands to one. This being the USA, all of them will be armed.

It comes across almost like a fantasy though. As with the Great Depression, we will get through. You may not like how it turns out, as the government may change, but it won't just collapse. Mad Max was a fairy tale, not much more (and it was a post nuclear war scenario).

As I have said, I do not believe any of these scenario's. I think you badly misjudge human nature. Civilization is a human invention, it is not something that just sprung up or can be obliterated casually, it can be reinvented if needed. The work we do is still the same, be it creating food or making machines, and both are in abundance in this country.

I will shut up now (as much as I am able). I have enough depression in my life, I need no extra.

 

Have you ever considered how bummed you will be if your predictions fall flat on their face?

I won't be bummed, I'll be elated! I hope I'm wrong, and I realize there's a very good chance that I am wrong.

You keep going on about it, but understand that you are a very small minority with this point of view. I place this firmly as I would most conspiracy theories.

I realize that. I realize most people lump me in with conspiracy theorists, overunity nuts, et. al. and I don't care. Even some members of my family don't hold their tongue about it. Everyone is entitled to their opinions & beliefs.

I do not believe there will be a collapse, most people don't. If I'm wrong I will suffer the consequences along with billions of other people. Fact is, we'll squeak by because it is in our interest to.

I'll be honest, it is tiresome, if it happens or not there is nothing you or I can do about it.

Every time I bring this up, you come back with "there's nothing we can do about it" - that is completely wrong. There is something we can do about it. We can learn the forgotten skills that have gotten s through hard times in the past. We can teach ourselves to get by on little to nothing to reduce the shock. We can learn to be diverse, adaptive, cunning; get out of the box.

But lets go over what happens if civilization does collapse.

Forget medicine and luxuries like electricity, making tools and appliances takes civilization. Electronics even more so. You will have them for a while, but things wear out and can not be replaced.

If you want to see the life style you will strive to achieve think the old west, where a black smith fabricated everything from iron. You can have electricity in small doses, from batteries and what not, but the large scales we are used to will be gone.

You will have to fight to keep what you have, and you probably will not win. You would be outnumbered thousands to one. This being the USA, all of them will be armed.

The key is to not make yourself a target. If you're the only guy in town still driving a pickup, you're a target. Look poor, downtrodden, ragged, just like everybody else. "you versus the world" is not a good stance to take. hide, if you are found, run, if they catch you, beg, if that doesn't work, pull out a gun do the dirty work.

It comes across almost like a fantasy though. As with the Great Depression, we will get through. You may not like how it turns out, as the government may change, but it won't just collapse. Mad Max was a fairy tale, not much more (and it was a post nuclear war scenario).

As I have said, I do not believe any of these scenario's. I think you badly misjudge human nature. Civilization is a human invention, it is not something that just sprung up or can be obliterated casually, it can be reinvented if needed. The work we do is still the same, be it creating food or making machines, and both are in abundance in this country.

I will shut up now (as much as I am able). I have enough depression in my life, I need no extra.

Yes, I realize all that. That's what I've been setting myself up for. I have blacksmithing skills. I know how to make ethanol. I am learning to grow food.

I think it takes more blind faith to just assume that we'll be OK or that somebody will take care of us than it takes to assume that everybody would turn on eachother and erradicate themselves. You think I have a warped perception of humanity, I think you're naive.

 

Bill, maybe this analogy can help you understand my point of view...

You are American, and have been surrounded by a culture of (relatively) safe practices for a long time. We wear our seat belts, we buckle our kids up, we look for cars with as many airbags as possible, we drive defensively (most of us). Now, try to put yourself in Indonesia for a minute. Let's say you married someone there, and had kids, friends & a family, people you care about. You, being a safety-minded American cannot help but feel a sinking feeling in your gut when you see people, a family of 6, riding on a 100cc scooter. 2 kids between dad & the handlebars, toddler between mom & dad, and a baby in a 5gal bucket bungeed to the back. And these people are your family. You feel obligated to say something, right? You feel like you should make people aware of the dangers that you are aware of. But they don't want to hear it. They think you're just all doom & gloom, and you never shut up about motor vehicle accidents. Every time you bring up safety, their response is "well, if an accident is going to happen, then it's going to happen, nothing we can do about it" - to which you have no recourse but to just smack yourself hard in the head.
They can drive defensively, we can live defensively.
They can take precautions for safety, so can we.

 

I'd put a fiver on them not falling off.