AI and computer graphics ?

Discussion in 'General Science' started by Mathematics!, Feb 3, 2012.

  1. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    I am very interested in learning and get to the top of these 2 fields AI
    and computer graphics.

    I am just wondering what books are the best , hardest , contain the most information, ...etc

    Any AI guys out their or computer graphics guys that care to elaborate ?


    I have used opengl , know some things about alice the AI machine, know math very well , know some computer vision and graphic design...etc
    I just want to become an leading person in those fields or at least beable to talk at the top level of these subjects.

    Any links to good amazon books would be great....
    Also good reference books would be great to...

    Typically I am not sure what students and professionals are using from AI and computer graphics books today

    Which ones are relevant or not which ones are good or poor
     
  2. nsaspook

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    Aug 27, 2009
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    AI, the next big breakthrough will be soon, but that's been said for the last 50 years.

    For computer graphics my text-book was http://www.abebooks.com/Principles-Interactive-Computer-Graphics-2nd-Edition/3558603341/bd
    Very out of date now but explains the primitives of image manipulation and matrix transformations in a clear way.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Sproull
    I would also recommend this book. http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Computer-Graphics-Peter-Shirley/dp/1568814690

    These books are not graphics cookbooks that show how to use opengl or another API but explain the low-level operations and theory of image generation and display.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2012
  3. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    do these also cover graphical design as well.
    Or just the math for doing 2D and 3D computer graphics/imaging.

    If so I am also wondering about graphical design book as well.

    Not so concerned about API and IDE's like opengl , or autocad, photoshop ,....etc as these I already are pretty familiar with and I believe to get better with these things all you need to do is practice. (that is once you know the theory of what can be done and how it is done then it is just learning the tool)
     
  4. nsaspook

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  5. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    Ok, but I am also wanting to become good with not only the math and theory but knowing how to design stuff well.

    How do graphical artists / designers get so good....

    Is their any books that can help improve how to make things look cool , nice ,...etc

    Even if I know all the theory and math it will do little good if I don't know how to make things look nice or what looks nice ...etc

    I am familiar with some of the tools and api's ( opengl , Photoshop , illustrator,...etc ) to create computer graphics and I am going to know the math and theory. But this stuff doesn't imply I will beable to create my own great stuff.

    Basically what is the best way to learn what looks good or what doesn't or what is out their ,...etc

    What books are the top books that graphical designers use to get good at what looks good and not. And what do they use to aid in improving their creativity ...

    Their must be something to help this process other then trial and error , or copying others work and redesigning it.
     
  6. nsaspook

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    For me being very good at artistic design is a talent that either you have and can improve or you don't and endless study will only result in disappointment. One of my kids has been selling her art since middle-school. She never had to ask what looked good or what doesn't. She is improving her mechanical skills and methodology by studying computer graphics and media in a formal course but the innate talent is just something some people are born with.

    I can't draw a lick so I can't help with books on that subject.
     
  7. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    I agree with you on some people are just blessed with talent.

    But I believe books and some education on the subject would help....
    I believe whoever you are their is always room for improvement even if you aren't talented and still have the desirer .

    And I was told by a friend that knew a really good graphical designer and she told him that she was not talented she just took the graphics design school courses and practiced alot like doing it ,...etc .

    I don't have the money to go back to school but I would like to get the same education on my own .... by practicing and reading the right stuff.

    Computer graphics theory books are easy for me to understand flipping thru a few I just got.
    Of course their is hard aspects to these books that will require time before full understanding the subjects at a professional level. But that is just time and determination.

    The design part is more of an art that some people have and some don't.... I agree with you on that.

    But their are good graphical artists/designers that weren't blessed with these talents and had to learn and practice to get reasonably good.
    Even if they are not the best and have limits to their skills they improved enough to be good enough.... no Mark McGuire but still respectable good.

    I am just curious in this case what books are the best to get or optimizes your designing abilities to the max even if you aren't bless with the talent that one of your kids has.

    Maybe if your kid doesn't mind giving me a few tips in graphical design/art
    She/he could post .... book links , sites ,...routines ,...etc

    That would greatly be appreciated.

    Another analogy would be lifting weights and exercises.... not everybody can look as good or as strong as all other people.... but
    their is always the potential to maximize your abilities to a respectable level or at least a self respectable level.... (no Ron Colman level).

    I am a big exercise guy... very weak and skinny at first... but after ten or more years of training , reading about nutrition and what exercise are best , and experience... I have developed a really great body and my strength is respectable
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2012
  8. nsaspook

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    I called her a kid but she's an adult. I'll ask her to PM you some links but we've had this conversation before with people asking for help. Her basic feelings are. If you have to ask style questions, you don't have it but can still be useful as a background artist.
     
  9. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    Thanks,

    She is probably really talented because usually the most talented people just don't know where they got it.... it is just like instinct to them.

    But kind of looking for a good graphical designer or advertiser/marketer that started out horrible and got to a respectable/good level even if he was not blessed.
    Curious in this case what one would have used to improve or the best methods for improving what you got.

    Though I am interested also in hearing what your daughter has to say.
    Don't know what a background artist does different then the real deal artist
     
  10. Wendy

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    Mar 24, 2008
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    Even drawing can have specific knacks. I have always been envious of people who could draw people and animals. I can draw things pretty well, and I know a lot of people who can't do that. I suspect the people who have skills get bored with what I do.
     
  11. nsaspook

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_artist

    My daughter read your posts, her response was that she's worked with a a few people who she felt had little innate talent but had hoped it would develop with study, all were technically good in the end but could never see beyond what they had learned. For her it just reinforced what she had already felt and expressed before but in a formal way that allowed her to focus her artistic (intuition/vision/insight) in a structured way. She finished with, if it's something you enjoy don't listen to anyone who says that you can't do it.
     
  12. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    I also was good at drawing when it can to reduplicating some thing.

    But when it comes to think something up and drawing whats in my thoughts and having that come out good is another story.

    Since graphics design is a profession I am assuming not everybody that wants to be a designer has those talents.... but everybody has the potential to improve enough to be respectable at it/what they want. May not be able ever to be world class but should beable to be respectable with time , practice and the right materials.

    That why I am asking the graphical designers / artists out their what books / courses / knowledge helped them the most improve their skills. I know practice , dedication , and time but wanted to know what books ,or types of learned skills / knowledge would help/has helped the most over their artistic development?
     
  13. loosewire

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    Correct me Bill ,M.I.T. has free course in a lot subject online,is

    that the right school.I will try to google it about computer grapics.

    Google-free online M.I.T. courses you can spend the rest of your

    life there,they even give free certificates. They have computer graphics.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  14. Wendy

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    Mar 24, 2008
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    AutoCad is a course unto itself. I knew a guy who was good with it, you can even simulate mechanical motion to see if anything bumps.

    It is also possible to design things that will fit together it you had a star trek teleporter, but that is the only way you would ever get them assembled.
     
  15. THE_RB

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    Feb 11, 2008
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    Or one of those amazing "3D printers" that will print a complex part out of plastic with moving parts already buried deep inside it.

    I saw one on discovery channed with multi "ink heads" that would print hard and soft plastics, rubbers, clear plastics etc. Seeing it print a toy car complete with clear windows was cool, and "print" a finished wheel with hard hub, tough wheelrim and a soft rubber tyre permanently bonded to the rim, all in one printing job. Amazing.

    Just to be on topic, I agree with getting 3D software skills. There are going to be a lot of jobs in CG and design modelling, well paid jobs, and most won't require art talent. Basically the art guy will create the main design then there are rooms full of well paid non-artist CG guys making things move and doing all the inbetween frames etc.
     
  16. nsaspook

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    It's interesting to me that "science" of AI (the other part of this topic) is like studying art to become an artist. We have the human mind and study its inner workings to construct a framework for a uniquely new intelligence from a set of rules and functions but are unable to make something greater than the sum of it's knowledge. There is just something totally beyond our current understanding that makes this possible.

    A crude but informative AI story.
    http://www.salon.com/2003/02/26/loebner_part_one/
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  17. Mathematics!

    Thread Starter Senior Member

    Jul 21, 2008
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    And their in lies the problem with AI. maybe.
    I think to understand the human brain completely would be impossible (chicken or egg problem)
    Since if we could understand everything about how the human brain works / thinks... couldn't we come up with some halting problem / Godel paradox that would proof that we could never beable to do this.

    If we could that would kind of be good and bad... good in that we could get an upper bound on just what a human being is capable of doing knowledge /creative wise ... bad in that their would be a bound on what we can do which means we can only do so much until are life is just going to be dull.

    Either way with that all being said you also have to factor in evolution and the ability that are brain is constantly evolving.

    Maybe it is more important to understand the evolving of are brain process then trying to understand the brain itself as a whole.

    Maybe AI. looking at it from how we learn , think ,reason,...etc is not the way we should be focusing are efforts but in the way it evolves chemically/physically/behaviorly....etc
    And not focus so much on quality of the brain that we value as important.
    Maybe we create a new life form that has a totally way of functioning different then what we perceive as valuable ways of thought they do it in a completely different / more efficient way.

    As we understand how we learn , think , reason and come up with algorithms in trying to model these this.... your always going to be restricting AI. since algorithms I don't believe can ever be used to described fully any way we learn, think ,...whatever.

    Though I do agree to keep improving what we call is AI. because as we keep improving it at least we will be-able to use them in more advanced tasks.

    I don't think by algorithms you could ever beable to create something that is more intelligent or creative then a human. Specially if it is the human that is writing the algorithms

    I propose The AI Superiority conjecture that states No Species using just a finite set of algorithmics can program a computer to become more superior then its programmer species.

    proposition 2
    The AI Superiority conjecture 2 that states No Species using a set of algorithmics can program a computer to become more superior then its programmer species. (infinite can be used and any order of infinity alpha1,2,3,4...etc doesn't matter their will still be flaws caused by what I would like to call cann't think out side the brain syndrome )

    It would be interesting to have a middle man maybe aliens that would maybe work lol for think out side the brain syndrome .

    The point of AI is still good we will eventually improve on it so much that most of the work of a human could be done by a computer... except the inventing, creativity ,...important things

    Which this gets back to the turings problem is if their will be away to distinguish between a computer and a human I believe the answer is yes though it maybe almost impossible... creativity is the key though.
    However nothing I wrote is proved fully yet... I believe people will see that this is the truth weather or not it is provable in are system of logic (Godel proof :)) is another story.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  18. THE_RB

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    Why does everybody assume making a machine think like a human brain is good? Humans are terrible at thinking, the average persion is more influenced by social programming and emotional drive than logic, and if a human becomes sufficiently competent at decision making he starts becoming very different from the typical human model.

    Machines thinking like humans is a step backwards, as silly as trying to make robots walk like humans when they can use fast efficient wheels, or fly with spinning props. Machines will think like machines, for the same reason that well designed robots will move like machines.

    This drive to "build machines in our own image" is one of those faulty decisions humans make, a decision people make based on things like social conditioning and emotional drive... As I said. ;)
     
  19. nsaspook

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    You don't think this is a technological advance of the highest order?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDm_b9O4DZU&feature=player_embedded
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZzLAsHiGHU

    Spinning wheels are so lame.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xeo2400krs&feature=related
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  20. Wendy

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    Mar 24, 2008
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    That is a good example of what people really mean about thinking robots. We are slowly getting there, but are still far away. A human can navigate point A to point B, stopping to communicate on the way, avoiding obstacles and danger, taking care of basic needs such as food and water. Machines do this with great difficulty, require extreme navigational aids such as GPS (with a human they are a convenience), and more.

    No, machines do not think, and humans do. This is not just about being about to hold an intelligent conversation.
     
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