AC Variable speed drive

Thread Starter

electronis whiz

Joined Jul 29, 2010
512
I don't see any rectifiers in this. It looks like the phases come in go through a big power transistor then out to some terminals on the board. There are three other transistors. I have a feeling that since the first one connects to all the phases it is related to FWD, REV. There are 3 others in the case with bus bars between them, One terminal goes to connection to the board then that goes out. The main PCB has a 30A fuse that I think is for the motor, etc, the logic PSU has another fuse that is mounted in holder on the case.

Many of the things I see for this say it has been discontinued.
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,798
You're not going to find any discrete power transistors in there. They use a singular purpose VFD power module that is one big flat pack with all the input rectifiers and output transistors inside.

I'm not going to read through the manual and quote it for you, but I will tell you that the answer to the question "will it run on single phase?" IS in that manual or one of the dozens of other related technical references on the yaskawa page that I linked. Some models of yaskawa cannot run on single phase. Some are designed to run on single phase. Some are designed to run on 3 phase, but can be run on single phase by disabling the "phase loss detection" parameter and derating the drive by about 60% (the manual will have the exact figure). When I say "some are designed..." I don't mean G3's can do this, G5's can do that, and A1000's can do something else. I mean that for 5hp A1000, there is one 5hp A1000 that is designed for single phase, and one designed for 3 phase. It comes down to the model number. You have to cross reference all those numbers and letters after the CIMR-... to the manual in order to know what you've got and what it can or can't do.
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,798
According to the manual for it this unit (the DS316 model) will run a 7.5HP motor. Says 10.2A at 460V.

It looks like it has a switching mode supply in it to run all the logic. I'm thinking it probably hooks into either a 120 or 220 poles. I'm not 100% on how three phase works i'm thinking it's like the 220 range plug. You have a neutral, and two hot. wither hot to neutral makes 120, hot-hot makes 220. Seems to me the 460V rating would have to be a combination of like a pair of 220 or something.

I suppose I could probably always bypass the SMPS too and put in some power from something else and see if it powers on.
Don't even think about it, unless you've got the schematics and know exactly where to apply what. There are ribbon cables to and from the various boards that have certain requirements. If you don't have the right signals in the right places then there isn't any kind of test that you can do to evaluate anything other than "dead", and maybe not even that, and you'd probably end up making it dead if it wasn't already. There are test jigs that yaskawa used to sell for testing the control boards and whatnot, that had ribbon cable hookups. Not sure if or where you can get one now.
looks like it was used because appears fan blew in dust. Only knockout on it though is on the side of the plastic cover which seems odd.
Probably for an expansion card, like an encoder feedback addon or modbus comms board or Something like that.
 

Glenn Holland

Joined Dec 26, 2014
703
That may be true in a 24/7 situation, but there are uncountable VFD's out in the real world happily using them on non-inverter motors.:)
There are inverters with a bipolar transistor output that will power the older motors that do not have inverter compatible insulation. However IGBTs are the industry standard for inverters and it's a sure bet there will be insulation failures with non-compatible motors. In addition to insulation problems, an IGBT inverter can also increase RF emissions.

As an example of the precautions that must be taken into account, the elevator industry often encounters older cable winding machines that are planned for upgrade and in each case, the motor has to be replaced with an inverter compatible model.
 

tcmtech

Joined Nov 4, 2013
2,867
I don't see any rectifiers in this. It looks like the phases come in go through a big power transistor then out to some terminals on the board.
That big power block is likely your rectifier assy and the other three big blocks are your switching devices for the three phase output.

To be honest it sounds like you are way in over your head on this thing. :eek:
 

tcmtech

Joined Nov 4, 2013
2,867
There are inverters with a bipolar transistor output that will power the older motors that do not have inverter compatible insulation. However IGBTs are the industry standard for inverters and it's a sure bet there will be insulation failures with non-compatible motors. In addition to insulation problems, an IGBT inverter can also increase RF emissions.

As an example of the precautions that must be taken into account, the elevator industry often encounters older cable winding machines that are planned for upgrade and in each case, the motor has to be replaced with an inverter compatible model.
Ideally yes in a perfect world however in reality unfortunately thee are likely millions of IGBT based switching device VFD units running typical non inverter rated motors. I have a few myself that have been used for years without problems and I have probably worked with a hundred more personally that are the same that have been in service for years running some pretty old motors that have yet to fail.
Also when setting up a VFD any good electrician would likely be doing a bit of basic testing to find what operating PWM frequency works best with whatever motor the VFD is operating on. I have not seen any decnet VFD that does not have a number of base switching frequencies to pick from.

Probability of failure is higher but for the average person not running high capacity high duty cycle production line systems it's not really a issue. If the motor goes then you consider buying a special application one but until then leaving good enough alone is more than sufficient.
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,798
There are inverters with a bipolar transistor output that will power the older motors that do not have inverter compatible insulation. However IGBTs are the industry standard for inverters and it's a sure bet there will be insulation failures with non-compatible motors. In addition to insulation problems, an IGBT inverter can also increase RF emissions.

As an example of the precautions that must be taken into account, the elevator industry often encounters older cable winding machines that are planned for upgrade and in each case, the motor has to be replaced with an inverter compatible model.
Of course you're correct, but in the context we are discussing, it's almost certainly irrelevant. If I were upgrading an elevator, no way in hell I would leave the old motor in there. Liability, etc. I wouldn't even pitch it to the customer as an option. But for retrofitting machine tools, pumps, fans, and just about anything not life supporting, I would tell the customer, "while we've got the unit down for the VFD retrofit, it would be a perfect time to upgrade to an inverter duty motor; it's gotta happen some time, might as well be now." In most cases, the customer would make a good decision to turn down my offer, and milk the existing motor for what it's got left in it, could be years. I highly doubt that whatever application OP dreams up for this VFD will preclude using a general purpose motor.

I would however advise keeping the VFD as close to the motor as possible with the shortest length of cable possible, to minimize the effect of HV transients caused by the fast switching VFD.
 

Thread Starter

electronis whiz

Joined Jul 29, 2010
512
I'm not for sure what i'll use it for yet. He thought if I could get it running on house supply it could be good for a suitable motor if I run across one, some sort of tool. I saw something mention if it has DC input then could be used in homemade electric vehicle like a go cart or something. Battery weight would probably make that impractical though at least using this device. I'm not sure, but may work with normal motor as well if it can be setup like that.

I'm still looking through manual seeing what all the things on this can do.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,702
The three main areas that are covered in a vector rated motor is winding resistance, balance and bearings, the winding resistance is moot now with the prevalence of high insulation varnishes used for some years now, balance and bearings are usually of no consequence if the rpm is kept to maximum of 3600rpm for the motor, either 4 or 2 pole.
As I mentioned before, the 3 ph motor-side choke takes a lot of the stress away by reducing or removing high frequency switching noise.
Max.ute
 

Thread Starter

electronis whiz

Joined Jul 29, 2010
512
I was able to put a 120 cor on the unit. I tried all combinations except polarity with the cord and the three terminals. It seems to power on, but makes identical error no matter input setup. The fan on the unit spun up, but definitely has bearing issues. Fan, the heatsink was all coated with a thin layer of black dust.

Anyways when power on I get the CPF00 error. I looked in the manual it has something to do with RAM, ROM, or remote operator control. It seems to be from the mid 90s, a few chips go back to like 85 though so the RAM or ROM would not surprise me. I saw a pair of EE or UV Proms on the on board.
I'm not sure what a remote operator control is. It sounds like some computer or control pad to program it. That seems odd it would take something else to use it when it's got a button pad and LED display on it. I thought maybe that pad was it, and bad connection, but it shows the error so seems it should be fine.
I saw a few ports on the computer PCB, figured they were for diagnostic or factory use or maybe some sort of add on I/O module.
 
That is a VFD, Variable frequency Drive for a 3ph induction motor, some can use 1ph input and out put 3ph, but that is most likely a 10-15hp model, if so it it too large for 1ph in.
Also being a 300v model you may have problems trying any output on 240v 1ph.
If it does fire up, you may have luck running a smaller 240v 3ph motor.
If it works, there may be a lucrative market for it?
Max.
I have a friend that's a master electrician. He was cleaning up his office today, and gave me some old stuff.

The one thing I got I know fairly little about. It's a Magnatek GPD 503. He said it's 3 phase, but thought I could put in a normal wall cord and run a 3 phase motor. It appears it's rated 300-500V 3 phase. Seems without a lot of extra gear it's not much use.

I'm not even sure it works. I like his idea, but I doubt that's possible, I was thinking maybe it could work as a signal generator of some sort if I can find a way to get 120 to run it and somehow isolate the output.
 
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