Absurd rules

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Rich., Jan 27, 2013.

  1. Rich.

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jan 26, 2013
    8
    0
    Hi, you recently closed my thread about designing a PWM led dimmer circuit to be fitted into my expedition vehicle. I find this totally ridiculous. The thread can be found here;

    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=80156

    The only thing automotive about the circuit is that its 12v, why the hell does it matter where i use it? The question is about PWM led drivers and hall effect switches. If i had said i was going to use the circuit for a flashlight, would that have been acceptable?

    I could understand if i was asking a direct question about altering or modifying auto electronics, but this is a stand alone circuit, and what the question was about. The only part effected by the vehicle is the 12v input, again why does it matter where the supply voltage comes from. Nothing to do with the automotive side of the project.

    Can someone explain this or are the moderators just being power crazy?

    Thanks
    Rich
     
  2. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,765
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    This site is owned by an individual. It is not a government, free speech is not a right here. You can take it or leave it as is.

    The rules are plainly spelled out in our TOS, the moderators did not create them, though we had some say making them (along with all the other long term members). The owner then decided what was important for him to support. He pays the bills (notice the lack of adverts?). The moderators then enforce them, it is our job here. We don't get paid, we put up with the occasional verbal abuse and volunteer our time freely.

    Alternative sites that don't have our rules were pointed out as a service. ETO tends to be less friendly, but that is the price you pay. If you don't play by the rules then you can't play. Most of us learned that as kids.

    This is a teaching site as well as a outlet for professionals who don't like to deal with trolls or flame wars. Anything resembling safety we tend to be fanatical about. We also are in one of the most litigious places in the world, one real lawsuit could shut us down. Given the real effort I put into this site (long before I was a moderator I used the blog feature) I would not be a happy camper.
     
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  3. praondevou

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jul 9, 2011
    2,936
    488
    I personally think it would be virtually impossible to affect the vehicle's electronics by replacing interior lights of a vehicle. At best (or worst) it could be a distraction for the driver.

    But Bill already said it, anything automotive related is a big No No here. You could have had a chance if this was a 100% offroad vehicle.
     
  4. bertus

    Administrator

    Apr 5, 2008
    15,645
    2,344
    Hello,

    Your post has been reported by one of our members using the report button [​IMG] .
    With that he did send an email to all the moderators and administrators.
    One of the moderators did check the thread and decided to close the thread.
    We all moderators are bound to keep track of the rules described in the Terms of Service
    If you would have take the time to look in the given link : Member selected automotive forums , you would have found my post in it:
    http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showpost.php?p=542447&postcount=7
    There is a forum given that specializes in all kinds of lightning.

    Bertus
     
  5. Rich.

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jan 26, 2013
    8
    0
    My point is though, i did not need to mention where it was being used, all i would have had to say was that i had a 12v dc supply, i mentioned its use to help people with recommendations.

    The question had nothing to do with the vehicle, but a stand alone circuit, which is why i dont see why there is an issue? If i had been asked to remove the mention of it being used in a vehicle then that would have been fine, and i still would have been able to receive the help i required, instead of having the post closed because i mentioned the word 'vehicle'

    The reason i chose to ask on this forum as i had found a few threads relating to my question, that i found via a google search, obviously they didn't mention the application in their thread and therefor the question was answered helpfully and a solution found, which is why i thought it would be a good place to start. I guess i thought wrong!

    Rich
     
  6. praondevou

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jul 9, 2011
    2,936
    488
    Yeah, but you DID mention "vehicle".:)

    Don't try to repost the question just removing those words, moderators aren't stupid.

    These are the rules.

    As for recommendations, your final circuit will probably need some simple filtering because the 12V will not be clean. Also when building anything consider that the maximum voltage may be well above 12V. We build DPSs and they won't be damaged up to 22V, eventhough the vehicles system is 12V.

    Check out the other websites Georacer proposed.
     
  7. DerStrom8

    Well-Known Member

    Feb 20, 2011
    2,428
    1,328
    Rich, I'm sorry you had a bad experience here. However, you knew the rules ahead of time (assuming you read the TOS before joining) and therefore should have known that we wouldn't be allowed to answer your question. It's not only a liability thing, but a safety thing as well. For example, if you splice into a circuit for, say, headlights, then there's a chance that your headlights won't work properly, which could cause an accident. Obviously this is a somewhat far-fetched example, but it should still make my point. It's a safety issue, and the administrators have opted to avoid such topics that could, ultimately, lead to damage or injury.

    However, as given in your thread, the moderators have been kind and generous enough to give you a list of other sites that would be better-suited to help you with automotive electronics. In case you missed the link, it can be found here: http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=54400

    The people at the suggested forums are experts with automobiles and would do a much better job of explaining how your project should be done, and how to stay safe. Do not blame the moderators here, or the site itself for these rules. I hope it's safe for me to say that we are concerned with your safety because we don't have the necessary experience. Many people here (such as myself) are very inexperienced when it comes to automotive electronics. We do a lot with computers, embedded systems, theory etc, but do not know enough about vehicles to be able to help you do it safely. That is why the moderators direct you elsewhere.

    I hope you understand this. You are welcome to hang around. We think no less of you, and we would still be happy to answer any of your questions that are not vehicle-related. You are still very much welcome here.

    Best wishes,
    Matt
     
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  8. Georacer

    Moderator

    Nov 25, 2009
    5,142
    1,266
    And a complementary answer to your question about what would happen if you hadn't mentioned the circuit background.

    Probably you would have got an answer (or several) and you would be happy on your way. We don't have oracle abilities and we take what you say as truth.

    But usually automotive circuits show their true identity within a page of posts or two, as the discussion around them progresses and then are closed too.
     
  9. praondevou

    AAC Fanatic!

    Jul 9, 2011
    2,936
    488
    I have to disagree. He wants to replace interior lights not reprogram his ECU. :) There are many people here with decades of experience, they could easily help.

    For me this is a liability issue. And the rules have been established by the site's owner as Bill explained. I don't think even the mods always agree, but they are only the police not the government, so to speak.
     
  10. MrChips

    Moderator

    Oct 2, 2009
    12,421
    3,355
    This site provides a valuable service to those who care to spend the time and abide by the rules.
    If you don't like the rules there are other sites that you can go to.
     
  11. DerStrom8

    Well-Known Member

    Feb 20, 2011
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    Okay, so you're one of the guys that does have experience. I'm saying that for a lot of us, we don't have the experience to really help, and that is probably why the admins opted to avoid such discussions.

    Regards
     
  12. Rich.

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jan 26, 2013
    8
    0
    Ok, i guess the moderators are following rules, and its not the moderators that i am directly annoyed with.

    I understand the rules perfectly, and they make sense, but i feel they have been taken out of context here and over enforced.

    I know you're all smart guys, so you know the only involvement of the vehicle was the 12v supply. If i hadn't mentioned it being a vehicle, and as you said, and it had came out later in the thread that it was, why would that matter? The discussion had nothing to do with the vehicle but a stand alone circuit. Why does the application make any difference? Is it general policy that the second 'vehicle' is mentioned red lights flash in all the moderators houses and the forum must be shut down and the cause identified? Why is it such a big deal?!

    I can understand the rule being there, if someone came on saying "Hi, the seatbelt reminders in my car annoy me, how can i disable them?" Perfectly justifiable. However if someone came on saying "I would like to build a charger for laptop, it will be powered from a 12v dc supply (car cigarette charger)" the post would be locked? Despite the fact the thread and advice would be identical to any other 12v dc supply laptop charger? Surely the moderators need to apply some intelligence as to what poses potential harm or a liability issue, and what is just a circuit with a 12v dc supply?

    Rich
     
  13. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,765
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    Interesting, that discussion has come up, about the cigarette lighter. It is usually allowed, modifications to cars is not. This is not an intelligence issue, but a simple enforcement issue.

    And the issue is simple, if you don't like the rules, and feel they are just too onerous to put up with, leave. Or stay and join the fray, but understand complaining about how things were run long before you found AAC does not one bit of good. We are not going to change, it really is that simple.

    So you can explore and see all the good things we offer (and this site is incredibly deep), or you can grip about what you can't do here, making friends and influencing people.

    Simple.
     
  14. DerStrom8

    Well-Known Member

    Feb 20, 2011
    2,428
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    See, I understand exactly what you mean. There is some gray area in the TOS regarding automotive circuits, and the mods do their best to figure out exactly how things might be set up, and do what would be best for the OP. I would suggest sending a PM to one of the administrators (Dave or jrap) and see what they think about your thread. If it is truly a standalone circuit and you don't plan on splicing anything in, they might give you a chance. If they feel there might be problems with it, they'll keep the thread locked. The other thing you have to worry about with automotive projects is legal issues with interior lighting. There are specific laws that vary from city to city, country to country, and we cannot tell you what they are. You'll have to look them up for yourself. In a lot of places, you can't have interior lighting other than what the manufacturer put in. That's something I'd recommend you check before sending a PM to the administrators.

    Good luck.
    Best wishes,
    Matt
     
  15. Rich.

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jan 26, 2013
    8
    0
    Ok, now I'm getting more confused.

    The led replacement panel i am planning on using is a bayonet fitting, it is an led panel, with a small loom, and a bayonet connector to power the panel from the existing bulb socket, totally plug and play. The dimmer i would be adding would be to the loom side of the led, not the vehicle wiring, therefore it is a modification to the led panel, not the vehicle. So, how does this differ from plugging in a cigarette lighter?

    Im sorry but i will not be hanging around on a forum with such a loose grasp on the rules, and over moderating as a 'just in case' measure.

    Thanks for your time.
    Rich
     
  16. Rich.

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jan 26, 2013
    8
    0
    Hi Matt, thanks for understanding where im coming from! Luckily there no laws in the UK regarding interior lighting, only exterior, including colours and HID replacement kits ect.

    Thanks
    Rich
     
  17. Georacer

    Moderator

    Nov 25, 2009
    5,142
    1,266
    In an effort to draw a line between what's approved and what's not:

    We do not allow for any modification to a vehicle, from ECUs to the simple light bulb. We do not know the design process of each model and cannot assume anything about the safety and smooth operation of that vehicle after any sort of modification.

    Circuits and systems that are powered through a lighter plug don't fall into that category, since they are separate entities and connect to the vehicle through an output power port that is expected to draw variable amounts of current and thus is separately fused and sometimes current limited.
     
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  18. DerStrom8

    Well-Known Member

    Feb 20, 2011
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    I had a feeling that was the case. I knew modifications of any lighting was often disallowed. The vehicle consists not only of the body and engine, but all of the other little things--lights, appliances, beepers, etc as well. Therefore, a modification of a single light goes against the TOS.

    I can see both sides, and I understand the rules. I know where you are coming from, Rich, but since the site is set up this way, we can't help you much here. However, as a sign of good faith the moderators have given you a thread with many suggestions of other forums you can visit to get your question answered. I, for one, am a member at Electro-Tech-Online, and I am sure they would be happy to help you. I have found them to be friendly, but their moderating is not as strict as the moderating here, so you may see a post from a troll or something. It probably won't happen, but it's possible. Anyway, they have no rules regarding automotive modifications, and I have seen many questions like yours answered there, no problem.

    Hope this helps.

    Matt
     
  19. Rich.

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jan 26, 2013
    8
    0
    Ok, i'll check out Electro-Tech-Online, thanks Matt.

    Thanks for your time everyone.
    Rich
     
  20. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
    20,765
    2,535
    I am not constrained at ETO either. Just send a PM to QuietMan, I am free to help people there.
     
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