A little vent - do some research!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by tindel, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. tindel

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Sep 16, 2012
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    I'm frustrated... As I get older (and I'm only 32) I find that people are getting lazier:

    This thread is the perfect example: http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=88528. I offered a solution to the question - how to implement pulse generation, as did a couple other folks. My solution would teach the op really all there is to know about pulse generation so that they could apply the theory to their application. The followup questions confirms that the op never even reviewed a single Tektronix document that I posted.

    I find this at work too... I had a level 2 EE come into my office the other day and ask me how a transistor works and claims he never took an electronics course in college. He didn't even know how to do the analysis on a simple common-emitter switch - or what a common-emitter switch was. I was dumbfounded for a few reasons 1) How a level 2 engineer is a level 2 engineer without knowing how a transistor works. 2) How he'd have the nerve to ask how a transistor works and 3) how he didn't at least do a google search to try to understand how a transistor works before asking how a transistor works, or god forbid opening up an old text book. 4) How you can graduate from any college with a BSEE and not know how a transistor works!

    I love teaching. I've often thought about volunteering at the community college electronics lab near my house, but when I get questions like this, it makes me want to scream! I definitely need students that are willing to learn. Thankfully my coworker is willing to learn, but how do some of you guys have the patience to work with people like this? Some of you post so often in the homework section to similar questions day after day... pretty common knowledge stuff that is easy to research on google.

    I'm not saying I know it all - there are certainly things I don't know... but before I ask questions I do a lot of research to try to have some knowledge when talking on the topic... I hate feeling stupid when talking to more senior engineers. My problem is probably not asking questions soon enough because I'd rather solve the problems myself and have the satisfaction that I came up with something myself.

    I have a saying that I picked up somewhere: "There's a difference between stupidity and ignorance." and I add: "You can't fix stupid."
     
  2. tindel

    Thread Starter Active Member

    Sep 16, 2012
    568
    193
    Oops - Meant to post this in off-topic... sorry.
     
  3. bertus

    Administrator

    Apr 5, 2008
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    Hello,

    I moved it to the off-topic for you.

    Bertus
     
  4. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
    10,505
    2,367
    Perhaps he did what quite a few that come here appear to do, is just to get answers without the required work when sitting for an upcoming test.

    I agree in this day and age of the internet there is hardly an excuse for not obtaining help in understanding answers to questions when one encounters a stumbling block.
    During my 'Learning' period it was either pay for expensive text books or even more expensive tuition.
    I would say all of us at one time or another has met some kind of brick wall, but you can usually tell when someone just wants to sit back and let you fill in the blanks with no effort on their part.

    My all time favorite quotes come from Albert. E. (not Newman!).

    “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”

    “I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination.
    Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”

    “Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.”

    “If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”
    ― Albert Einstein
     
  5. Rbeckett

    Member

    Sep 3, 2010
    205
    32
    In this day and age of instant satisfaction it is easier to get some one else to do the work for you than it is to learn it yourself. I find this all the time in my trades and it is maddening that the guy who is supposed to be smarter than me is earning a whole lot more money than I am, but has no clue how to do what I do to keep the machine running. I have always supported teaching from within and only promoting engineers and tech who have demonstrated their ability to solve problems and keep things going first. No track record? Start at the bottom and work your way up,, need more money? Work harder and learn more. Increase your value to me and I will pay you accordingly....OK, I'm back quiet now, rant over.

    Wheelchair Bob
     
  6. bountyhunter

    Well-Known Member

    Sep 7, 2009
    2,498
    507
    I guess I don't. I seldom post in the homework section and when I do, I post general info that would answer the question. Most of the OP's are just expecting a canned solution and very few of them even bother to answer when it becomes clear they may have to learn something.

    It is the computer simulation generation: they think you type a key and the answer appears. Thinking must be avoided at all costs.
     
  7. Metalmann

    Active Member

    Dec 8, 2012
    700
    223
    I have had the patience to train a "whole bunch of people",;) in the Metal/Woodworking Trades, and giving Guitar and Bass lessons; over the years.
    And, I never get frustrated when it comes to helping/educating people.
    I guess some guys have a lower threshold than me.:D
     
  8. #12

    Expert

    Nov 30, 2010
    16,250
    6,745
    A little vent? I think it's called a "rant" when I do it.

    I too have difficulties with the point and click generation, and a few others. The problem is that there is no end to the supply. While I occasionally snap at someone for wasting my time, I find that the "ignore" option works better and doesn't tarnish my on line image as much. AAC, User CP, Edit Ignore List, type in most of the screen name, accept a suggested name, Okay, save changes.

    You see, the solution is not in asking the world to provide less mule-stubborn laziness. The solution is to accept our limitations and change how we react to it. I summarize my, "idiot list" as, "Do not engage with people that are stupid, illiterate, or emotionally incontinent. They require an awful lot of time and effort, and usually fail anyway".

    Of course, I make a distinction between stupid and ignorant, between intentionally illiterate and first language challenged, between temporarily frustrated and permanently angry at the laws of physics. Still, I regularly find myself in a pointless conversation. Some of them go on for over a hundred posts, but they go on without me. I just add to my ignore list and puzzle a tiny bit about the other helpers that seem to be able to cope with those individuals. (Note my rare concession to politically correct word usage!)

    Two weaknesses in this approach: It seems to take longer for AAC to sort through my ignore list than it used to, and it seems that everyone has said something stupid at one time or another. Just yesterday, one of the regulars seemed to be on an emotional bender. He'll be OK tomorrow. He is not on my ignore list. Another one posts walls of text, but you can usually find a speck of wisdom in there if you have the time to sort through it. I don't think that one is going to change. He is on my ignore list because I choose not to invest the time required to sort through 500 word answers. (Sometimes I lurk without logging in. That allows me to see what I've been missing.)

    You will have to weigh your strengths and weaknesses and choose which customers to not engage with.
     
  9. JoeJester

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 26, 2005
    3,373
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    There is an old saying about giving a man a fish and teaching a man to fish.

    I realize how often the same questions appear, and some direct people to various sections of the ebook published at this site.

    I know it upsets most of the regulars who provide assistance, when another user just flat tells the OP the answer, which is not helping the OP at all.

    As far as your coworkers. You can hold them to the standard you expect of their degree or whatever their course syllabus stated they "learned". You would be surprised on how many people were shocked to be held to standards. I would remind my charges of their responsibilities to know the material in their performance qualifications. When they were substandard, I would do what was necessary to bring them in compliance. I don't see why a "degreed" person shouldn't be responsible for the course syllabus. The most frequently heard comeback will be "they" never taught that. I've heard that time and time again. I actually took someone who stated that infamous line over to the instructor who taught that topic to get to the bottom of who was "shading the truth" ... the student or the instructor. Boy does their line quickly change to "I forgot". I can work with "I forgot".

    I don't think we could gather all the syllabus' out there, but, we can be steadfast to the rules of the homework area, and other area's where they might attempt to use those areas to "bypass" the homework area's rules.

    I was asked a few years ago how I was able to tell whether or not it was a homework inquiry ... I responded, once you've read enough around here, it's pretty obvious.

    I think a lot of people "vent" from their side of the screen and not projected to the world. I know I do. I might even go as far as type it in the quick reply box, only not to post it.

    Keep focus on the intent of the various sub-forums. Have fun assisting where ever you can. Most of all, don't burn yourself out. Some posters aren't worth your time, and you can form your own metrics on who deserves your time.

    Remember, it's the members who make this forum the best. If you want to view one, look in a mirror and tell the image they are doing a good job.
     
    Georacer likes this.
  10. Georacer

    Moderator

    Nov 25, 2009
    5,142
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    I haven't even got my degree yet and I know I don't remember half as much as I was taught. I have retained only what interested me.

    But I sure won't apply for a heavy motor technician position, just because I took two courses 4 years ago. I should know better than that.
     
  11. tracecom

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 16, 2010
    3,869
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    As one of the least knowledgeable "regulars" here, I have to plead guilty to this on some of those instances when I think I know the right answer. (I am not referring to the homework section, where I very rarely post at all.)

    Usually, when I ask a question here, I am stuck. I have tried to solve the problem on my own and have failed; I am wanting an answer, not a bunch of links or hints, many of which I have already consulted and considered. Perhaps it's because of my own limitations in education (three college degrees, but none in engineering,) or innate ability (my math skills past basic algebra are nonexistent,) or some other personal shortcoming, but I only ask after I have tried and failed.

    I assume that may be the case with some other posters, and I often provide the best answer I know to their question, with the hope that the answer will not only get them over their current "hump," but will also prompt them to have an "ah-hah" moment and increase their understanding. It's kind of like looking in the back of the book to see the correct answer, and then working to understand why the right answer is the right answer.

    If I have offended some of you by posting direct answers to questions, I apologize, but I do so out of a desire to help those who need a fish instead of a lecture on fly tying.
     
  12. GopherT

    AAC Fanatic!

    Nov 23, 2012
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    The worst part is that these people post their urgent question on multiple forums, everyone tries to give them an answer and they never come back.

    I try not to invest too much time in answering people with 1 post. I usually just ask them to clarify their question to make sure they come back and are engaged in AAC.

    There are other people who create new posts often but never come back to say they've figured it out, ask a follow up or tell us they will at least try the answer. We should put a tag on these 'members', the ones that start threads but no other follow-up. We need a name for them too.
     
  13. Georacer

    Moderator

    Nov 25, 2009
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    I don't think we should follow a teaching procedure for anything other than Homework Questions.

    Someone asking for a replacement transistor or a Watt rating for a component shouldn't have to understand the whole circuit at hand.
     
    tracecom likes this.
  14. Metalmann

    Active Member

    Dec 8, 2012
    700
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    You guys could create a sub-sub-forum, just for answers.

    OP asks a simple question, he gets a simple answer.

    That way, nobody gets upset.;)

    Some posters do not want to learn it all.

    I do want to learn it all, but there is no way I'll ever get to your stage.:D

    Not enough time.....




    You could call it, "Instant Answers".:eek:
     
  15. shortbus

    AAC Fanatic!

    Sep 30, 2009
    4,003
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    I'm one of those guys that doesn't seem to get it, I guess. I'm math challenged and not ever trained in electronics, even though I do try to make things.

    I ask questions not from a engineers perspective but as a hobbyists level. I don't need the physics behind how things work, just some rules of thumb. I'll never be at the level of most of the regulars, but do read most of the threads in the forum.

    Is there a place for me in this world of AAC? I hope so. Am I on some peoples ignore list? Probably, but I hope not.

    When I found AAC it was during a quest for knowledge in electronics. At 65+ years of age and after having two strokes, and no real electronics or physics back round is there a place here for some dummy like me? Again, I hope so. Before giving up on all of us dummies, please remember what it was like before you went to college and learned what you know. When you had no one to give you a hand or help.

    Some times it just takes a little more, a different way of explaining, for it to click in a persons mind.

    My rant over.
     
  16. Wendy

    Moderator

    Mar 24, 2008
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    This whole site is dedicated to that already. The Homework forum is there to help people learn, which requires they do more work.

    Helping folks is always voluntary. I ask the occasional dumb question because someone may have a better answer than mine.
     
    Metalmann likes this.
  17. tracecom

    AAC Fanatic!

    Apr 16, 2010
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    And on a positive note, I have learned more here about electronics than from any other single source. Thanks to all of you, AAC members. :)
     
    elec_mech, shortbus and Metalmann like this.
  18. #12

    Expert

    Nov 30, 2010
    16,250
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    I think of them as, "drive by's" They drive by, fire a question, and keep going. That usually doesn't bother me a bit. The website's method of un-bolding the title means I will never check it again. Very minimal time waster, unless I have over-invested in my first reply. That's the main reason my first replies are very short. I don't want to feel bad about a drive by, so I keep it short until I confirm that we're having a conversation.

    What? You wanted some acknowledgment, maybe even a, "Thank you"?
    Not on my list of important things. The other side of that coin is people that espouse many grateful thanks and never find the "Thanks" button.:rolleyes: Still, it feels petty to point that out to them. Nobody is going to mail me a penny for every, "Thanks" I get.
     
  19. bountyhunter

    Well-Known Member

    Sep 7, 2009
    2,498
    507
    I couldn't count how many "question" posts I have seen that were obviously a homework question posted in the other forum to avoid the answer: "You have to try and do something before we give you the answer."
     
  20. GopherT

    AAC Fanatic!

    Nov 23, 2012
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    I have. It was $13.00 in pennies
    It was addressed to:
    Mr #12
    15 Miles West of Tampa, FL

    Congrats - your next post will be 6000
    (Not stalking, I just needed the "thank count" for above.)
     
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