At the picture I did not see a capacitor at all.
In the schematic diagram the capacitor is not connected to anything else beside one leg of the transformer.
What are You trying to explain with those attachements ?

Yes,,, exactly what I thought. The capacitor (connected leg) is at the end of the secondary leg. In some cases, he did not have or use the other secondary leg. Don't know enough to know if this hurts anything but evidently it did and does not harm the charger.

To all concerned. I am willing to post any pic, draw any schematic, give numbers, manufacturers, types of components as they are used in this charger. It is becoming apparent that not only I but everyone else on this thread will learn something from this old man fence chargers.


Have a nice day :>)
Bladerunner

 

The big gray oval shaped component behind the transformer looks like an AC capacitor. There are two showing in the photo.

Yes

After a night of little sleep, multiple review of the posts on this three page thread, I have come to the conclusion that I owe the members, guest, student posters an apology for being so crass, indignant, arrogant and just downright salty. I make no excuses for my behavior.

I am sorry for my responses to various posts and apologize from the bottom of my heart to those who I have offended.

I would like to ask two questions: Is this type of design illegal and is it very dangerous to the customers who I repair the chargers for? It is evident that it is dangerous to myself while repairing them.


Have a nice day :>)
Bladerunner

 

Can you show a FULL schematic.... one that shows power coming in, the connection to the driven rod ground and the fence wire? (all fence chargers should have a driven ground rod or use a metal fence post as one)

 

Can you show a FULL schematic.... one that shows power coming in, the connection to the driven rod ground and the fence wire? (all fence chargers should have a driven ground rod or use a metal fence post as one)

Bill3857: Thanks you. I have tried to make a pretty schematic using the normal symbols but somehow it does not show everything. What I will do is make a drawing depicting what I see in short order. Will guarantee you can read it. lol.

Bladerunner

 

there are a few parts in the picture that are not shown o the schematic, the white rectangular resistor for one.

 

there are a few parts in the picture that are not shown o the schematic, the white rectangular resistor for one.

Yes,, even though I have software that lets me draw it, my ability is somewhat lacking in that department. I will draw it by hand (very legible) and that way I can be sure you are getting what I am seeing. I also have a full schematic that I drew up but I don't trust it. I will post it as well. The biggest problem I have is the initial transformers. He used everything he could get his hands on. Some trans had circuit boards on them and he would jumper them to suit his needs. But they all do one thing. And then he feeds back the DC onto ac volts or visa-versa (not really sure)? Wild. no.


Thanks again for the help and I will post both of them this evening.


have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner

 

Can you show a FULL schematic.... one that shows power coming in, the connection to the driven rod ground and the fence wire? (all fence chargers should have a driven ground rod or use a metal fence post as one)

here they are Bill.. One is in word with all the trimmings and some pics and the other is a Full Free-hand schematic. No laughing allowed. Please lol.

Please ask any question, as far as the voltage and how I measured them.

The two leads (secondary) on the trans are both 14V. when measure between secondary post. The neutral side is 110 ( half wv).

I also have it set up here so, I can apply power and ck anything you need in a short period of time.



Thanks again.

 

here they are Bill.. One is in word with all the trimmings and some pics and the other is a Full Free-hand schematic. No laughing allowed. Please lol.

Please ask any question, as far as the voltage and how I measured them.

The two leads (secondary) on the trans are both 14V. when measure between secondary post. The neutral side is 110 ( half wv).

I also have it set up here so, I can apply power and ck anything you need in a short period of time.



Thanks again.

Hope this attachment does better!

Bladerunner

 

Without going through the entire drawing, it looks like the basis is a capacitive discharge unit using the diac set up as a relaxation oscillator. That would result in periodic pulses. The drawing in the document shows the SCR configuration incorrectly. The diac will go to the gate lead. It looks like the rectifiers charge the 40-80 uf cap and when the 47uf cap gets charged enough through the 2meg resistor to fire the diac, it triggers the SCR which dumps all the energy in the caps into the fence transformer primary. I'm not quite sure what the secondary windings do on the input transformer.

I've attached my version of what I think I saw from the hand drawn. I'm going to guess that the indicator light is a neon.

 

Without going through the entire drawing, it looks like the basis is a capacitive discharge unit using the diac set up as a relaxation oscillator. That would result in periodic pulses. The drawing in the document shows the SCR configuration incorrectly. The diac will go to the gate lead. It looks like the rectifiers charge the 40-80 uf cap and when the 47uf cap gets charged enough through the 2meg resistor to fire the diac, it triggers the SCR which dumps all the energy in the caps into the fence transformer primary. I'm not quite sure what the secondary windings do on the input transformer.

I've attached my version of what I think I saw from the hand drawn. I'm going to guess that the indicator light is a neon.

He used various type lites. most of them have a cylindrical casing allowing them to be placed in about the 3/8 hole. The red lens at the top with two leads. He at one time used fluorescent lites in some.




WHich way is the flow going?


Thanks

Bladerunner

 

Without going through the entire drawing, it looks like the basis is a capacitive discharge unit using the diac set up as a relaxation oscillator. That would result in periodic pulses. The drawing in the document shows the SCR configuration incorrectly. The diac will go to the gate lead. It looks like the rectifiers charge the 40-80 uf cap and when the 47uf cap gets charged enough through the 2meg resistor to fire the diac, it triggers the SCR which dumps all the energy in the caps into the fence transformer primary. I'm not quite sure what the secondary windings do on the input transformer.

I've attached my version of what I think I saw from the hand drawn. I'm going to guess that the indicator light is a neon.

I really do not know. I have several of them and know the amperage but don;t know if they are neon or not. He at one time used fluorescent rings.


The c6 cap is 47uf. 50 V. This is a DC system is it not? where the large capacitor holds the charge (unlike ac discharging and charging). Why is he putting 110 V. on the line from the secondary. If you will look at one of the pictures in the document, he uses one transformer (stepdown but cut these leads) and used a primary side lead. The primary was for 120 (one red and 240 the other red but by using either red with the hot (120V) simply produces 120 V on the other red lead. This was what all the commotion was about in earlier posts.

Lets look at the split transformer picture from another post. I may be measuring the secondary wrong. You have four top pins. (left to right) #1 to Hot 120VAC. #2 &#3 neutral and #4 is tied to #3 secondary pin and #4 secondary pin is tied to the circuit. Now I get 14V across #1 &#2 secondary pins. and should get the same across top#4, sec #3 and sec #4. Right? I have been measuring The top #2/3 Neutral and sec #4. This way, I should get a half wave of 120?????? Where am I going wrong?


The main lead (120 VAC) comes off of the cap c1 & c2, goes through D2 and D4 then D1 and D3 on the other half of the wave? Am I right so far? Either way, the current from here on is DC except for the secondary lead. It hen charges the C3/C4 caps. Can it do that from either side of the cap?

After this it gets fuzzy which direction the current flows from here. Knowing this would help a bunch.


If the secondary is 120 how dangerous is it to the 47 uf capacitor. Thus
Could this transformer be left out completely? It may be just a smoke screen.? to throw people off from stealing his product. He was funny that way. "Don't worry about how it works but that it does work".

With the 47 uf cap tripping the diac, does the diac need to be a least a HT32 or can I use an HT60 or other as a way to control the timing of the system? I ask because I have one fencer that is running away (so to speak) while the others are slower. either the capacitor is bad or the diac needs to be changed to a higher threshold?

gonna have to contemplate your drawing a little longer. I am a little slower these days.

Thanks again.

Bladerunner

 

One other item while I have your attention, Please. The old man said that the system would not work with a neutral/ground type plug. WHy I do not know but he used the plugs of old, those that were two and those two leads were the same. I don't think he gave me any explanation other that it would not work. I guess the final trans negative grounded box and all?

Have nice day :>) I know you have made my day already.

Bladerunner

 

Without going through the entire drawing, it looks like the basis is a capacitive discharge unit using the diac set up as a relaxation oscillator. That would result in periodic pulses. The drawing in the document shows the SCR configuration incorrectly. The diac will go to the gate lead. It looks like the rectifiers charge the 40-80 uf cap and when the 47uf cap gets charged enough through the 2meg resistor to fire the diac, it triggers the SCR which dumps all the energy in the caps into the fence transformer primary. I'm not quite sure what the secondary windings do on the input transformer.

I've attached my version of what I think I saw from the hand drawn. I'm going to guess that the indicator light is a neon.

BillB: Thank you for helping and hope that you and yours had a relaxing Easter

I have attached a thumbnail of your drawing. I have made some changes (see trans). I have also added current flow. Think I am right but one or two places I am not sure of.

As far as the 1st trans is concerned. Is it really necessary here. It looks as though it only gives out 1/2 wave of 120VAC. Would not the neutral suffice here. It two is 1/2 wave of 120VAC.

Would it be better to measure it in AC or DC since from what I see, it is a little of both.

Have a nice day :>)
Bladerunner

 

BillB: Thank you for helping and hope that you and yours had a relaxing Easter

I have attached a thumbnail of your drawing. I have made some changes (see trans). I have also added current flow. Think I am right but one or two places I am not sure of.

As far as the 1st trans is concerned. Is it really necessary here. It looks as though it only gives out 1/2 wave of 120VAC. Would not the neutral suffice here. It two is 1/2 wave of 120VAC.

Would it be better to measure it in AC or DC since from what I see, it is a little of both.

Have a nice day :>)
Bladerunner

Found a error in the current flow, I think. Have up loaded a refreshed pic.

Bladerunner

 

Let's look at your latest drawing..

First, incoming power.
When the top of the transformer, T1, is on the negative half cycle, diodes D2 and D4 will be forward biased allowing current to flow to the other windings of the transformer. This will cause C2 and C1 to charge with negative on the left and positive on the right.

When the other half cycle presents itself, th top of T1 will become Positive. This voltage will be added to the charge on C1 and C2 and forward bias D1 and D3. The combined voltage of the line voltage and the C1/C2 charge will be directed to charge C3/C4 with the tops being negative and the bottoms being positive.

It looks like it is a form of voltage doubler, but with the diffence in size of C1/C2 (effectively 2.5uf) and C3/C4 (either 40 or 80uf) it would take several cycles to fully charge the C3/C4 combination.

Now that we have a power bus (C3/C4), we'll look to the right. R3 provides a charge path to C6 with the top of C6 being negative and the bottom becoming positive over time. Once the voltage on C6 builds to a value high enough to break over the Diac (D5), it will conduct through the cathode/gate junction of the SCR. Gate current is limited by R5 to prevent damage to the SCR gate.

When the SCR is triggered, the energy stored in the C3/C4 combination is dumped through the primary of T2, the fence charge transformer. The SCR will continue to conduct until the voltage level in C3/C4 drops so low that it cannot maintain minimum holding current through the SCR. At that point, the SCR will stop conducting, the power supply will again start charging C3/C4, C6 will start charging through R3 and the cycle will repeat.

Two thingsI would change. 1st and foremost, the incoming transformer, according to the connections you as a modification to my attempt at drawing it out.... That connection shows that the transformer is being used as an autoformer with additional boost of one of the secondary windings which would double the incoming line voltage. Secondly, the left end of C2 is shown connected directly to the line. NOT A GOOD IDEA!!! Are you sure of how it is connected? You should not be able to use an ohm-meeter and get continuity from any part of the overall circuit back to the power plug. The transformer should provide isolation. The problem is that if C1 and C2 develop shorts (caps tend to fail shorted), live line voltage will be running around in the circuit. That is a real NO-NO!

 

Let's look at your latest drawing..

First, incoming power.
When the top of the transformer, T1, is on the negative half cycle, diodes D2 and D4 will be forward biased allowing current to flow to the other windings of the transformer. This will cause C2 and C1 to charge with negative on the left and positive on the right.

QUOTE]When the other half cycle presents itself, the top of T1 will become Positive. This voltage will be added to the charge on C1 and C2 and forward bias D1 and D3. The combined voltage of the line voltage and the C1/C2 charge will be directed to charge C3/C4 with the tops being negative and the bottoms being positive.

I am having a hard time getting my head wrapped around this concept especially the 'forward biased of D2/D4allowing current to flow to the other windings of the transformer. Is there a link that I can go to in order to help me understand this part a little better?





It looks like it is a form of voltage doubler, but with the difference in size of C1/C2 (effectively 2.5uf) and C3/C4 (either 40 or 80uf) it would take several cycles to fully charge the C3/C4 combination.

Now that we have a power bus (C3/C4), we'll look to the right. R3 provides a charge path to C6 with the top of C6 being negative and the bottom becoming positive over time. Once the voltage on C6 builds to a value high enough to break over the Diac (D5), it will conduct through the cathode/gate junction of the SCR. Gate current is limited by R5 to prevent damage to the SCR gate.

When the SCR is triggered, the energy stored in the C3/C4 combination is dumped through the primary of T2, the fence charge transformer. The SCR will continue to conduct until the voltage level in C3/C4 drops so low that it cannot maintain minimum holding current through the SCR. At that point, the SCR will stop conducting, the power supply will again start charging C3/C4, C6 will start charging through R3 and the cycle will repeat.

Two thingsI would change. 1st and foremost, the incoming transformer, according to the connections you as a modification to my attempt at drawing it out.... That connection shows that the transformer is being used as an autoformer with additional boost of one of the secondary windings which would double the incoming line voltage. Secondly, the left end of C2 is shown connected directly to the line. NOT A GOOD IDEA!!! Are you sure of how it is connected? You should not be able to use an ohm-meeter and get continuity from any part of the overall circuit back to the power plug. The transformer should provide isolation. The problem is that if C1 and C2 develop shorts (caps tend to fail shorted), live line voltage will be running around in the circuit. That is a real NO-NO!

[/QUOTE]


Thanks . My first concerns are of the raw voltage you spoke on your last paragraph. Am not really sure what an autoformer is but am sure that he is trying to double the voltage. On one of the pics in an earlier post, he used a 120/240 V cut-down trans (24 V). By cutting the 24 V wires they would not be used, he then connected hot to common, and neutral to the 120 red wire which would also produce 120 in the 240 red wire. This was used as his secondary.

You say the caps c1 and c2 pose the biggest problem. I am not sure what the current is coming from the caps (have not got to that point yet!), but the container of this rig, has two fuses that are between the main source and the entire circuit. Forgot to draw that in. In fact, did not even think about it. These fuses are 1 amp. The casing is metal which is grounded by the neg on the outgoing trans. Does this take care of the "live line voltage". I don't think he really worried about one hurting someone because he puts hundreds of them out there and I have never heard of anyone getting hurt. Of, course there is always the first time.

The cap (c6) is indeed connected the same way every fencer he made. The Neg(-) is always near the secondary entrance and positive goes toward the Diac. In some cases he used a long cylindrical cap (values same) and would run it directly from a middle post (after the secondary) direct to the diac post.

In you opinion, is it protected enough to use in the same way (since we have the new factor of fuses?. I don't really care to lose my face not at this age.

I take it that the direction arrows were pretty close to accurate.

It looks like it is a form of voltage doubler, but with the difference in size of C1/C2 (effectively 2.5uf) and C3/C4 (either 40 or 80uf) it would take several cycles to fully charge the C3/C4 combination.

This probably how he timed the discharges. If you have one too fast, you cannot get away from it.

Would taking off the secondary (tans) and use a neutral work here?

I will work on my math a little more to understand the amount of current going through it. Until that time that it is deemed safe for the customer and myself as well, I am suspending any repairs. I already do not build them just repair them

Thanks again
Blaerunner.

 

Let's look at your latest drawing..

First, incoming power.
When the top of the transformer, T1, is on the negative half cycle, diodes D2 and D4 will be forward biased allowing current to flow to the other windings of the transformer. This will cause C2 and C1 to charge with negative on the left and positive on the right.

When the other half cycle presents itself, th top of T1 will become Positive. This voltage will be added to the charge on C1 and C2 and forward bias D1 and D3. The combined voltage of the line voltage and the C1/C2 charge will be directed to charge C3/C4 with the tops being negative and the bottoms being positive.

It looks like it is a form of voltage doubler, but with the diffence in size of C1/C2 (effectively 2.5uf) and C3/C4 (either 40 or 80uf) it would take several cycles to fully charge the C3/C4 combination.

BillB: Thank you again. It seems you are the only sounding board I have.

After a lot of study, I will assume the way he has the transformer set up will react in the same way as if the neutral was setup direct. Therefore I have submitted two pics one the Neg wave direction and the Pos wave direction. Am I right in my directions of current here.

By calculations I could find, the capacitors C1 and C2 at 2.5uf help Produce??? the current up to 5.6 A from a 1 amp source?? Is this correct?

Thanks again

Bladerunner

 

It looks like it is a form of voltage doubler, but with the diffence in size of C1/C2 (effectively 2.5uf) and C3/C4 (either 40 or 80uf) it would take several cycles to fully charge the C3/C4 combination.

Bill; I have measured the lines every way without the c3 (main) capacitor and T2 (main) trans in line and cannot find any evidence of doubling the voltage to 240. The secondary coming out of the trans (T1) is 130 VAc. I suspect a few extra windings in the secondary are the cause here.

The circuit is indeed isolated. I guess throught the capacitors c1 and c2. The T1 trans is like a light bulb, it has little resistance across it as would be expected by the way it is set up.

Have a great day :>)
Bladerunner

 

Looking at your marked up drawings showing current flow. Your arrows show conventional flow, not electron flow. The left hand drawing seems to be correct. However, the right hand drawing shows the current going to the left through D4. During that half cycle, D4 will be reverse biased so the current will go straight down at the right side of D4 and return to the top of the secondary winding of T1.

As for voltage doubling, there are two ways. 1) use the transformer wired as an autoformer. All that means is that a winding is placed in series with the winding to which power is applied and phased in such a way that the voltages add. Many transformers have dual primary windings so they can be used on either 120 or 240 volt circuits. For 120, normally, the primaries are connected in parallel. For 240 volt operation, they connect in series with the center connection insulated. Sort of like putting two penlight batteries in parallel or series. This works for AC.
2)To double the DC voltage use capacitors and rectifiers. The theory is that on one half cycle, all the voltage is used to charge the capacitors through a diode. On the other half cycle, the first diode will be reverse biased and not conduct, BUT a second diode will effectively take the charge on the capacitor and ADD it to the source voltage. There are a couple of different configurations on how this is done, but your circuit is one of them. A Google search of "voltage Doubler" should give more detailed information.

If the transformer T1 has a split primary, one of the primaries COULD be used as a secondary and give 120V out and that would also provide the recommended isolation from raw line voltage.

 

Here is a link that will show several types of power supplies as well as voltage doubler circuits.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/8.html

and here is a YouTube explanation.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4ED_8cuVTU