30 amp relay type question???

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by andrew_lbreman, Jul 20, 2013.

  1. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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    so I am a good mechanic but when it comes to electronic relays I suck. I dont know how to properly read them. The first one is my relay that is broken. The second is the one the auto parts store guy says is the same. The problem is that the original i have has a solid line coming from (the box with a line through it) to the switch. the one they sold me doesnt. Also further info... the 87 and 87a posts are in the same place on the back at the posts even though they show reverse on the diagrams. I really appreciate the help.

    It wont let me insert an image or I cant figure it out, so I am inserting the link to the images on the seadoo forum. Also if anyone has seadoo questions I am happy to help. Thanks again. you can post back on here after looking at the link.

    http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?64107-P06-16-2008-seadoo-gtx-155-AGHHHHGHHH!!!
     
  2. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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    that didnt work either cause u have to be logged in to see them.. Give me a minute and I will figure out how to post them.
     
  3. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    87 is the normally open contact and 87a is the normally closed, common is 30 on an automotive relay.
    85 & 86 are the coil.
    Max.
     
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  4. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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  5. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    A resistance test will confirm the connections.
    Max.
     
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  6. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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    Max like I said I am a pretty good mechanic but dont know how to properly test electronics. I dont really know how to do a ohm test and also the original relay is broken. I took it out of its case and put it in a ultrasonic cleaner. I now get it to click but thats it.
     
  7. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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    i do have a few multi meters that I use to test for 12volt current and they have ohm test settings but I dont know how to use them
     
  8. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    If you replace the wires to the same terminal numbers, then it should work, the problem is, is when it is a plug-in relay and the terminal/pin layout is different.
    Max.
     
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  9. LDC3

    Active Member

    Apr 27, 2013
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    What does the relay control?
    What would be the problem if the relay is backwards (the switch is closed instead of open)?
     
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  10. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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    the computer is giving me a p06 16 code which is starter relay open or grounded. somehow the power runs through this and turns everything on when I connect the key to the post (where programmed key opens a magnetic switch). the key has both an rfid chip that is read and a magnet. It sends a message to the computer and the gauge cluster comes on. the new one I have allows the gauge cluster to come on but the wiring diagram looks different and has less solid wires than the old. also when it comes on it gives the code, and will not turn the motor over when I press the start button. I know the button works because it actuates the fuel pump when I press it but doesnt allow me to turn the ski on.
     
  11. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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    OK so I reread maxs first post and best I can describe on my first relay I have a solid line connection between the coil and the 30 switch. The only difference on the new one is that it doesnt have that line. Is that just showing the pull of the magnet? I would think it would be a dashed line or something if that were the case. just my thoughts and maybe a better description. Also Thanks alot for the help. I have been trying to figure this out for a while and just now thought of searching this kind of forum. I really appreciate it.
     
  12. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    The numbering for automotive relays is pretty much standard as stated, so if the number of relay pins are there, ( some do not have the 8a) it will be electrically identical.
    If you apply 12vdc to the coil, 85 & 86 the relay picks up and connects 30 to 87, with no voltage on 85 - 86 then the connection will be from 30 to 87.
    This can be measured with a resistance meter across the contacts from 30 to 87 or 87a.
    Max.
     
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  13. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    Well I would say that if you are trying to diagnose problems such as modules on the end of a Auto Can-Open (Controller Area Network), you really need some kind of, even very basic, knowledge of electronic trouble shooting, and basic meter usage, these problems can be elusive even to a skilled Tech, without this, you may end up spinning your wheels.
    I am just trying to be realistic.
    As to diagnosing these kind of problems on a remote forum like this, is likely to be hit and miss at best, unless someone has had exactly the same kind of problem.
    BTW, I re-read and saw you mentioned Ski, is this a jet ski, if so you need the schematic, if you could post it with the problem area, there may be a chance?
    Oops, Seadoo post mentioned, I should really pay more attention!! :confused:
    Max.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
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  14. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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    Look I am not an excellent mechanic. I can do the mechanical side of builds and I am good at it, thats all. When it comes to newer computerized stuff I dont have the computer system called BUDS to read the issue and I have never had any training on electronics. So mock me all you want but I am trying. I do what makes sense to me. I have a few books that I have read that at least help me to now read wiring diagrams. I appreciate max helping me and for the other guy go somewhere else. I am trying and to me it is like a different language. I have completely gone through wiring harnesses and I apply 12v current through them and look for what I call bleed over into over lines. every wire and pin is good and has no bleed over into any lines that it is not intentionally connected to. I can make a wire connect to what I need it to connect to, but I dont understand relays. I started to write a nasty statement to carrie but decided against and I appreciate the help from max. I will post the pics of the wiring diagram from the shop manual. Thanks again for the not nasty approach. And carrie I didnt ask for the crap or attitude. THere really is no need or cause for it.
     
  15. Kermit2

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 5, 2010
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    951
    Okay

    some information

    How to use an Ohm meter to check connections.

    1. Reading the display: Touch the black and red probes together(short them to each other). Look at the meter display and note what you see. This reading may be 0.03, or 0.12, or some other very low numerical value. This is the meter telling you that it sees almost NO resistance. This should be understood by you to be a condition indicating that the two points being probed are connected. Since you are 'connecting' the black and red probes to each other on purpose, this becomes obvious. This is called detecting continuity.

    2. Using the probes to detect continuity. FIRST, be sure that all voltage has been removed from the circuits your are going to check. Ohm meters do not like seeing voltage on the places you put the probes. Put one probe(red or black, it doesn't matter which) on the point you want to examine, and put the other probe on the point you want to find out about. Seeing the very low value displayed that you see when you short the probes together indicates the two points you have the probes touching ARE CONNECTED to each other. They have continuity. If you see some other number it should be understood that this number is a value of resistance. If the meter shows the number 510.0, then you must read the value as Five hundred and ten OHMS of resistance. If the meter gives you a very very BIG number, or displays nothing at all, you should understand that the two points the probes are touching ARE NOT CONNECTED. This is no continuity between the two points being tested. This is also a condition known as 'open'.

    A relay is exactly like a light switch in a room of your house. The coil of the relay does the same job as your hand does with a light switch. By putting a voltage on the coil. the relay 'turns on the light'. It moves the switch from one position, to the other position. By removing the voltage from the relay coil, you make the switch go to its other position.

    The terms Normally Open(NO) and Normally Closed(NC) are used to talk about the relay and tell you what its two positions are doing.

    These terms refer to the condition of the relay contacts when it IS ENERGIZED with a voltage on its coil. A contact with NC beside it will be connected with the common terminal when you put voltage on the relay coil. It is 'normally closed'. Anytime the relay has voltage applied the normally closed contact will be connected(have continuity with) the common terminal.

    The Normally open terminal, NO is just the opposite. When the relay is energized the NO terminal will NOT have any connection with the common terminal

    REMEMBER these names, open and closed, are in reference to an ENERGIZED relay. When you take a relay out of circuit. It will NOT be energized. The normally open terminal WILL BE CONNECTED with the common terminal. The normally closed terminal WILL NOT BE CONNECTED. The names are only true when the relay has been activated with a voltage on its coil.
     
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  16. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    I am beginning to get the picture now, (I think), Never worked on a Skidoo, but apparently they have a diagnostic system similar to the auto Canopen? Called BUDS?
    Never knew that!.
    Also has a RFID start system?
    This is where it could get tricky if this is your problem area.
    I know there are cheap Lap-Top OBD-II scanners for autos with free software, but it sounds like Skidoo is a different animal unfortunately?
    Max.
     
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  17. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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  18. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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    Thanks kermit. That helps. I use 12v on a wire and usually touch my red to end wanting to test and black to neg on the battery but this seems alot simpler. It has been some time since I read about wiring and circuits and testing so I am not fresh but I printed out your instructions on ohm testing and am putting it in my toolbox drawer with my multi meters.
     
  19. andrew_lbreman

    Thread Starter New Member

    Jul 20, 2013
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    Oh and BUDS is the the seadoo diagnostic computer system. Every ski however has the ability to give you codes but not to give you answers or paths to follow that give solutions. There is a knock off system called CANDOO pro but they want about 400 and that only allows you to scan 4 jet skis. Another thing this is for a ski that I built all of the mechanical parts for and usually farm out electrical problems but decided to try myself. And this is a personal ski.
     
  20. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    What is the year these applies to, I see the manuals are available on line in PDF?
    Max.
     
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