3 Phase Water Pump Problems!!

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Dfry, Apr 10, 2013.

  1. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
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    Hello All,

    I am putting this out there for anyone who may have a definitive answer for my problem. I am currently trying to install a U.S. standard 3 Phase water pump for my living facilities, But our site is powered by a European standard (220v / 50Hz) generator. The generator has a Bus bar setup with an output of 220v. The pump is a (208-230v / 440-480v / 60Hz) Pump.

    When I wired the pump for Low "Y" Voltage Transmission the pump started to smoke immediately but the pump was moving for a short period of time. I am curious to find out if there are any alternatives or suggestions that might help me understand why 220v will not work on this pump??

    the wiring diagram for "Y" or low voltage transmission is below:

    Phase1 to 1 and 7
    Phase2 to 2 and 8
    Phase3 to 3 and 9
    leaving 4,5, and 6 tied off together
     
  2. elec_mech

    Senior Member

    Nov 12, 2008
    1,513
    193
    Welcome to AAC.

    Assuming the motor is wired to accept 230V and the generator is producing three-phase power, the problem isn't with the voltage, it's the frequency. Trying to power a 60Hz motor with 50Hz will cause the motor to spin slower. This can also lead to the motor trying to pull more current than it is designed for which results in a very hot motor that will shut off if it has thermal protection or smoking if not.

    If the 50Hz generator is your only source of power, you're better off finding a 50Hz pump. The alternative is to use a frequency converter, but it will probably cost more than a new pump and the generator will have to provide more power to make up for the efficiency loss of the converter.
     
  3. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
    13
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    Thanks for the the detailed response and assuming it was the difference between 50 and 60 Hz then Im looking for the answer to we had a running single phase 115/230v .75hp motor for about a year with no issues. we had a 400v and max 450v capacitor. im just trying to understand why this motor is causing problems. If anything i will buy another but i would at least like to give this one a shot for the interim.

    Thanks,
    David
     
  4. elec_mech

    Senior Member

    Nov 12, 2008
    1,513
    193
    It depends on the motor. Most will only work on one frequency. Some are designed to run on both frequencies though. For those that do, 60Hz motors will run slower and with less power on 50Hz supplies. A motor designed for 50Hz and run with 60Hz will run faster, but by design at the same level of power output (not more). Sounds like the single-phase wasn't picky.

    You can always double-check with the manufacturer of both motors and verify though. I'd suggest doing this beforehand for any 60Hz motors you plan to connect to a 50Hz supply to be safe in the future.
     
  5. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
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    Yeah unfortunately when my colleague bought this motor he was buy the make type similar to the previous motor. I believe with the 3 phase unlike the single phase has more power requirements and to do such we would need to bridge the connections in order to achieve the High voltage transmission. Ultimately this motor was made for American power and it seems that European power is harder to interpret. I looking for the answer to why this motor doesn't like 220vac because on the Motor plate it says it can take 208vac to 230vac and for high voltage it can take 440vac to 480vac.

    I need answers to why it wouldnt work similar to the single phase if the only thing that differs is the Voltage requirements and phase type.

    When something stumps me i like consume as much knowledge pertaining to the incident.

    Thanks
     
  6. elec_mech

    Senior Member

    Nov 12, 2008
    1,513
    193
    First, if the nameplate says the motor can accept 208+ and 440+, it can only do so if it is wired by the user correctly. The nameplate usually has a wiring diagram showing how to connect its leads for each range.

    Second, is the generator producing 3-phase 220V or single-phase 220?

    It really depends on how the motor was designed. There isn't a universal truth that all single-phase motors will run on either frequency and all 3-phase motors won't.

    At work we use 3-phase 60Hz Marathon motors and drive them with 3-phase 50Hz. The models we use are designed to accept either with the stipulation RPM and power output is reduced by 5/6ths when using 50Hz.

    I tried using a single-phase 60Hz fan motor on a 50Hz line and it got hot and never ran. Thankfully it had a thermal fuse that reset, so I didn't destroy the fan. Worked fine again on 60Hz.

    Again, I'd suggest contacting the manufacturer of the pump in question. They may be able to shed more light or offer more assistance. They may also offer an identical model designed to work with your generator.
     
  7. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
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    0
    Yeah i understand and I'm not an electrician but i do know enough to correctly wire a 3 phase motor, however the motor is engineered for more reliability and smoother operation. The generator that provides power is 3 phase as well. the setup is adequate for the motor to at least operate even at sub standard levels without destroying it from the start. i was told that this motor, given the current circumstances, will not last very long.

    Even though it sounds crazy, I have to make this pump work until i get another. This pump provides the only running water to our living quarters. Forgive me if I'm persistent, but I just need some good and reliable input before pulling the trigger.

    Thanks for your input and all is appreciated.
     
  8. elec_mech

    Senior Member

    Nov 12, 2008
    1,513
    193
    Please understand I don't mean any offense, I just don't know what has been done. I do a fair bit of remote troubleshooting and invariably I get a number of people who claim to understand a great deal then fail to connect to something properly or check something something I've asked them to do x times. When I ask questions or making qualitative statements, it's because I don't know and I'm trying to cover all the bases.

    That said, it doesn't sound like the pump will work with your generator. A frequency converter could be put between the generator and pump, but you can replace the motor in far less time and for far less money.

    The only solution I can think of in a pinch is to see if you can increase the speed of the motor/engine driving the generator to get 60Hz out. If yes, you may need to move a jumper on the AVR (automatic voltage regulator) to the 60Hz if equipped to help the AVR regulate properly. Of course, this will impact whatever else the generator is powering - any 50Hz motors would have to be disconnected or they will likely burn out.
     
  9. BillO

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2008
    985
    136
    Something sounds wrong. It's unlikely that the motor would start to smoke if run a 50Hz, given that was all there was wrong.

    Do you have a link to the product information on the motor and generator?

    Also, if for some odd reason the motor would run that hot at 50Hz and that was the only problem, did you try to adjust the speed on the generator? Most decent generators can be quickly adjusted to run at either 3000 or 3600 RPM.
     
  10. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
    13
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    This is exactly why I am hesitating to start it up again. The motor make is: CHI4-40 ABG BQQE and the model number is: C4j503464P10832. The Old motor was Made in Germany and this one was made in Taiwan. regardless of where it was made I have a question that might help me further my troubleshooting. this motor was designed for a "WYE" pairing, but can you facilitate that with a 220V connection. I tested the voltage and i was reading 225-227vac.
     
  11. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
    13
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    also coming from the main breaker is a 4 cable 3-phase power setup.

    1-red
    2-black
    3-white/grey
    4-blue (neutral)
     
  12. BillO

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2008
    985
    136
    The company that makes this pump is here:

    Grundfos Pumps Corporation

    17100 W. 118th Terrace
    Olathe, KS 66061
    Telephone 913 227 3400

    I'd give them a call.

    Also, you can see if you can find anything on their web site at: www.grundfos.com

    I found this data sheet which has some trouble shooting in it, but not much.
     
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  13. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
    13
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    Bill,

    Thank you for the research. I just want to get an educated response from someone who knows differences between European and US standards and how those values can be compensated for. Im not looking for converters or alternatives as much as i am looking for the definitive answer to whether or not this pump will function given the values stated earlier

    Thanks,
    David
     
  14. BillO

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2008
    985
    136
    Not suggesting converters or alternatives. However, the manufacturer might have more and better information and will likely be able to give you better advice than the folks here.

    AFAIK, it should work, if it's properly connected. However, there may be stuff I just don't know about this pump motor.

    Another thing to look at is how the neutral is connected in the generator. I have heard horror stories there. Oh, BTW, how did you have the single phase motor attached to this generator?

    Also, did you consider speeding up the generator or does it have to run other stuff at 50Hz
     
  15. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
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    I Dont know exactly what requires 50Hz but i do know that were are Americans and all have down converters to 110-125vac for our rooms but the generator im not allowed to tamper with. The generator is an industrial size machine and it runs to a Main breaker box and from there it is setup for 3-phase power running red-1 blue-2 grey-3. branching out to a smaller breaker box designed for the water pump which was wired as a 3 phase but only used as a single phase. so the problem now is getting the 3 phase pump to operate on 220vac and 50Hz without blowing up on the first day. and i know that at 3000 Rpm it runs 50hz and 3600 Rpm is 60hz but I am unable to change that becuase they have to re-wire the bus bar inside the generator
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  16. strantor

    AAC Fanatic!

    Oct 3, 2010
    4,302
    1,988
    This should be wired in Delta AFAIK unless the motor nameplate gave you some indication otherwise. Can you post a pic of the motor wiring diagram?

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
    13
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    I dont have a picture of the wiring diagram but i remember the the wiring sequence for both high and low voltage.

    HIGH/LOW VOLTAGE wiring for a 9 lead tri-phase motor:

    **This is almost identical to my diagram minus (RUN/START-220v at the bottom)**

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
    13
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    I am curious to why they didnt provide a Delta connection diagram for this motor. Even though this is a US standard motor; it meets the power requirements for the motor and it has the correct 4 wire 3-phase generator legs to provide power. In the single phase motor we used a capacitor rated at 400v - 450v max and like i said before, it was a 60Hz 115/230v motor. what is the difference for the power sequence other than the fact that it is 3-phases at 120 degree phase shifts. Can you use the capacitor in any of the wiring scenarios to help the motor achieve its full operational state?
     
  19. Dfry

    Thread Starter New Member

    Apr 10, 2013
    13
    0
    Having some trouble posting Pictures but this should help


    Thanks for all you help
     
  20. GetDeviceInfo

    Senior Member

    Jun 7, 2009
    1,571
    230
    a story about how you converted from single phase to 3 phase would be interesting. I'd be checking for single phasing on the motor. The voltage/frequency thing shouldn't be a problem, however, if your asking for full load from the motor, at a reduced frequency, your going to get a lot of extra current. Remember that hp is a torque/speed thing, and if you need the hp but take away the speed, all that's left is torque, which means current.

    As an aside, a nine lead dual voltage motor doesn't go from delta to wye. That's hard wired into the motor. What you do is series or parallel the windings. Stantor's pic of a 6 lead is a different animal.
     
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