230v 3 phase European commercial oven on 240v 3 phase US?

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Mrmike99, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. Mrmike99

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 21, 2016
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    Hello, I understand that you cannot operate a 230v single phase appliance from Europe on split phase 240 US.

    But, can you operate a commercial oven designed for 230v 3 phase on US 240v 3 phase?

    We have an older delta high b leg 240v 3 phase power supply, does that make a difference?

    There are no motors and it is rated for 50/60hz.

    I am not sure about a neutral. I believe they also do not use a neutral on their 230v 3 phase - only with the 230 single phase similar
    In manner as our high leg delta system. We use the neutral for 120v on the a and c legs.

    Thanks for anyone's input and opinion.

    Mike
     
  2. Mrmike99

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 21, 2016
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    After much Googling and reading, it appears that as long as a neutral is not used for other circuits in the oven,
    the oven doesn't care if it 3 phase delta or 3 phase wye as long as it is 3 phase 230v +/- 10%. If it needs to be used as a wye with neutral,
    then we must use a delta-wye transformer.

    Do I have this right?
     
  3. #12

    Expert

    Nov 30, 2010
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    There are 2 ways to approach you today. I could teach you all about the ground and bond and several power delivery systems used in America or I can say, "You are going to have a licensed electrician on this job and he's supposed to know." If he doesn't, make him pay for the burned up stove.

    I believe you can hook this up successfully, but I don't think YOU can hook this up successfully.
    This isn't a beginners exercise. It's a death trap for amateurs.
     
  4. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    As to the above, Why Not?



    As long as the oven does not need a neutral, which is often normal on 3ph then there should be no problem.
    As @#12 mentioned I would get some local advice on the nature of the present grounding.
    Max.
     
  5. Jony130

    AAC Fanatic!

    Feb 17, 2009
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    But in which country in Europe they have a 230V 3 phase system ?
     
  6. Mrmike99

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 21, 2016
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    #12, pretty harsh response. I never said that I was hooking it myself or not bringing in an electrician. We are considering different ovens out of Europe and need to understand what work would need to be done or if the hook up is even possible or too costly in the case we need a transformer. I understand safety and your concerns, thank you.

    Jony130, I understand that most 3 phase in Europe now is 400v 3n. But 230v 3 phase is still found. For example, I know someone in Belgium that has it and he doesn't have a neutral and is just like our delta 240v. The manufacturer has not replied yet. I am not sure these model of ovens were made for the US or older parts of Europe or both. I am waiting on wiring schematics and a response.

    Max Headroom, my understanding is that in Europe the 230v single phase is off a single live 230v and neutral while ours is 2 live 120v wires (opposing phases) and neutral. Maybe there is something I am missing or some other modification or different way to hook it up that you are thinking ??? I would also think this model is built for 50hz and not our 60hz, but it is an oven and not a motor. I will ask for this schematic too and see if it is a 50hz or 50/60hz. How would you wire it?

    I agree that the grounding is important, but other than that, I think it should be fine on our 3 phase.
     
  7. #12

    Expert

    Nov 30, 2010
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    This may seem to be a dumb question but, if you've decided you must have an oven made in Europe, why not just tell them what you have available for power and ask if they can provide one that will fit?
     
  8. Mrmike99

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 21, 2016
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    We can, if we go through a US Distributor. They want $16,000+ + tax.

    1 distributor in the UK has a cancelled order and will accept 3200 gbp = $4176 but, it's a 400v 3n

    1 distributor in Sweden has a 230v 3 phase and will accept 46000 sek = $5464

    Of course we have at least $2000 in shipping and small import duty. Still saving a bundle.

    But, if we need a transformer, new wiring, top electrician etc..., those savings shrink fast and may not be worth the effort and headache.

    That's why the 230v 3 phase would be the best option if we can use it easily because we have it and the wiring/disconnect switch ready to go.

    I am curious, looking into the future and possible move, what is the most common 3 phase and single phase set up for restaurants, small businesses, retail, etc. Do they do 277/480 (and run 120 separately?) more or 120/208 more? It looks like 240 3 phase is far less common now.

    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  9. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

    Jul 18, 2013
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    Not really 'opposing' phases, just a centre tapped 1ph transformer.
    The oven cannot tell any difference between the two supplies! Unless it had anything synchronous to the AC it makes no difference.
    As long as you include a ground conductor.
    I am not really a fan of 'high leg' supplies to obtain a form of neutral.
    208 3ph is the more common because it produces 120v to the star neutral.
    Max.
     
  10. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
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    So what does a European made commercial oven have that any US sold one does not? o_O
     
  11. Mrmike99

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 21, 2016
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    Ok, but I am still not sure how it would be wired if it is now 2 hots vs 1 hot. But see below.

    This is a very high end electric Pizza oven made in Sweden - Pizzamaster.

    Better heat controls, recovery, and overall bake. And, they can reach 932 degrees

    similar to a wood fired oven for Neapolitan style pizza. And cheaper in Europe.

    US gas ovens typically reach 600 degrees and good electric, 700-750.

    I came across an Italian oven's schematics and photo for 230 single or 3 phase.

    It's an Italiforni (much cheaper) but reaches 842 degrees.

    It looks like they leave neutral jumper cables in place with the 3 phase.

    What I don't understand is the single phase set up. There are 3 hots and 3 neutrals shown.

    I will try to find and upload.
     
  12. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

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    The 'Two Hots' is Electrically Identical to a hot and neutral.
    An upload of the info would be best.
    Max.
     
  13. Mrmike99

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 21, 2016
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    I still have not got a response or schematics from Pizzamaster.

    The 2 photos and schematic attached is for the italiforni TK D model.

    Is it within code to use one of the hots to the neutral in that 230 single phase?

    The Italforni shows 3 hots and 3 neutrals for single phase.

    tk-d_wiring_single_ph_2.jpg itlaforni-tk-d_wiring.jpg
     
  14. Mrmike99

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 21, 2016
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    The single phase set up makes no sense to me. Could the 3+3 wires be going to 1 hot and 1 neutral at the panel?
    I thought you could not do this. Or is this some crazy European set up??? Maybe you guys have seen this before. I can't find the single phase Italforni schematic. Just read that the 3 phase is ETL certified but not the single phase.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  15. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

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    According to the schematic that is a 3 phase oven, there is a 1ph transformer in there, but if the idea is to feed it with single phase 240v N.A. style supply, as it appears to be virtually all resistive/element loads then conceivable you could run it on 1 ph N.A. supply But you need a supply that can provide the total capacity.
    They appear to configure it for three 1ph loads spread across 3 phases for balance purposes.
    Max.
     
  16. kubeek

    AAC Fanatic!

    Sep 20, 2005
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    Max, so would you agree that the "PER V.400+N" is a connection for a supply voltage with 400V phase to phase and 230V phase to neutral standard eu voltage, and the "PER V. 230" is for a supply voltage 230V phase to phase and 132V phase to the non-present neutral?
     
    MaxHeadRoom likes this.
  17. Mrmike99

    Thread Starter New Member

    Aug 21, 2016
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    That's what I first thought - 3 separate 1 phase breakers and 3 neutrals - but then thought that can't be and have never seen it.
    But, now you are saying it can be set up this way.

    But with our high leg delta, we could not do this because of only being able to use the A and C legs, right? Or could we use 2 +1 with the neutrals? Let's just say the single needed a 60 amp breaker, would you put in (3) 20 amp breakers in this situation or would it be 60 amps each? Just curious, of course we would prefer and do the 3 phase set up if we used this oven.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  18. MaxHeadRoom

    Expert

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    The schematic shows two versions, both using 230v, one is 440v and neutral for each single phase loads. The second shows a 230v between phases supply.
    The fact that they appear to be all single phase loads, they could conceivably be fed from a 230v 1ph source.
    Usually once a load reaches a certain wattage, the service Co. requires it be placed across 3 phases.
    With a hi leg delta, it is not required to use a neutral. The neutral is only required with a 400v 3phase star system.
    Max.
     
  19. MaxHeadRoom

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    As long as 240v between phases this would be wired as per the schematic 230v version, i.e. no neutral.
    Max.
     
  20. tcmtech

    Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2013
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    Pizza snob or Pizzaphile? o_O
     
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