Just FYI on power window motors. Most systems have used two wire motors until recently and all of these motors do not have limit switches. The limit is set by the window travel and is stopped at the top by the window regulator and body and at the bottom by the window regulator. If you were to hold the button long enough, the motor would overheat and an internal circuit breaker would cut off the power supply. That is the safety mechanism. No limit switches, just motors and breakers. Simple

 

No limit switches, just motors and breakers. Simple

My 2002 Aurora has electronic circuit breakers on the window motors.
Max.

 

Sorry MaxHeadroom,
I would have hoped the two wires actually give/output changes in voltage
Rainer

Yes it does, I should have added, make sure of the correct polarity for the sensor.
Max.

 

Getting really basic here, sorry, but: placing a voltage meter lead on one of the two wires with gound to motor ground should give some type of impulse readin/ voltage spike?

 

If you are talking about the sensor, a volt or ohmeter will not give you any meaningful reading, the sensor requires a voltage source to operate, on the Bosch dwg it is -v to 3 (111) and + to 4(1V).
If feeding it from a Micro input, the input goes to + and the -v goes to supply common.
Max.

 

Now I'm confused and wished I could read diagrams.
In the Bosch.pdf diagram I see nothing that resembles a transistor or relay.
But the eplanation of the IPS, it seems to tell me that a pukse is created and then amplified (and I REALLY do not want anyone to think that I think I know what I am reading).
THat, again, would be great if a reading could be captured and manipulated.
Max, if I understand you, then the motor is not giving information but the two wires instead FEED a sensor inside the motor? IF that is correct, once a sensor wire receives say 5V, it could act as a break for the motor (and again, have no clue what the Bosch diagram says, I can't even find some of the symbols online such as the rectangle with an 'X' in it, which I am sure is not an H-Bridge relay )
Sorry for the ignorant questions.

Rainer

 

The N/S is a magnet attached to the motor, this is detected by the hall or other circuit indicated by the X, the figure that says Circuit Diagram and shows a resistor Rp which would represent a pull up resistor on the external detector circuit, Uh/l is the actual input to the PLC, micro etc (IV) WRT circuit common (III) .
The resistor Rp provides a sufficient current to the circuit whether the sensor detects on (1) or off (0).
There is actually a internal transistor shown in the drawing.
Max.

 

TY MaxHeadRoom
That I think I understand.
I will play with it a little and see if I can use it as an upper/lower indicator, if not, I will go ahead with my scheme using external relays.

Amazing amount if knowledge here - Seems like electronics is a world of it's own (then again, our whole world incl humans is essentially electronics)

Rainer

 

I have another thought, if the sensor is on the motor shaft as the pic indicates, it would not be a Up/dwn indicator, plus only one sensor for up and down does not make sense, also the motor shows some kind of current limiter in series, so I am guessing that when the motor bottoms out it goes into current limit and then if the control end does not see a pulse(s) within a certain time frame, it shuts off the power.
Another issue is if you intend using the sensor as a Picmicro or similar input then you will have to find out if it operates from a 5v input, rather than a 12v input as original.
If not then some kind of interface from the 12v to 5v is needed.
Max.

 

I think the fact that it is reversible is awesome! The fact that it has 2 extra wires and their possibilities is Greek to me - I could maybe understand this reasoning in about a year or ten? I applaud your knowledge!

I am going to go with motor, 2 wires, up and down limiters such as a transistor or SPDT relay, and call it the day. The Up and down limiters can send a small 5v signal back tot he micro processor and it can then be programmed to shut of the 12 V supply in case the door shakes or something happens to the limiter switch.
When I get that done and working, then I will take the second motor apart and take a pic if anyone is interested?

Rainer

 

You do realize I suppose the sensor cannot be used this way if, or do you intend fitting separate limit switches?
Max.

 

The system used with this motor uses a feedback control setup. The two extra wires are used as a feedback mechanism to the control module and are used to monitor the electrical arc (ripple) produced as the brush passes between two commutator bars. When the motor reaches the end of its travel, the arcs will stop. Instantaneously, the module receives this feedback and cuts current to the motor.
Hope this helps.

 

How come the Bosch dwg states 'Hall Type Sensor' and shows a N/S magnet attached to the armature, with no electrical connection to the motor?
I doubt the idea of brush noise is a reliable indication?
Max.

 

This is how it was explained to me but I'm thinking more along the lines that the NS magnet provides an impulse to the Hall Effect Sensor, sending a signal to turn it on and off for each revolution. When it hits the end of its travel, the pulses stop and the control current is cut off by the control module. In automotive, this is the first time I have seen a two wire HE sensor. Interesting.

 

In automotive, this is the first time I have seen a two wire HE sensor. Interesting.

This is why I made my post about Hall sensors being three wire devices. But as a new to electronics hobbyist guess I'm wrong again.

 

Nobody said you were wrong. I'm just mystified as to how this can be a Hall sensor. I would liken it more to a pulse generator but if someone could explain it better to me, much appreciated. I'm here for the education.

 

2 wire hall sensors have been around for 20 to 30 yrs as far as I remember, I have used them mainly on PLC and CNC input applications as they do not switch a load such as a relay as do their 3 wire cousins.
When they are on, although registering a low on an input, they are still able to draw small current from the connected device to operate.
One application is sensing the piston of a pneumatic cylinder, the piston carries a circular magnet which is sensed through the aluminum cylinder wall for position sense.
The link in post #20 has some explanation.
Max.

 

Thanks Max. My experience with Hall Effect is DC automotive/heavy truck and we are all about 3 wire Hall Effect and 2 wire pulse generators so this is something new again. I stand by my opinion on it's purpose and operation in this window circuit but something new for my crew to learn. Good to know.

 

if someone could explain it better to me, much appreciated

I think the IC Max is referring to is probably something like this? The link shows what's inside the IC.

 

I stand by my opinion on it's purpose and operation in this window circuit.

I agree with you as far as the order the hall effect is used in that it monitors the rpm's and on motor activation, when no pulses are seen the power is switched off.
I have never dabbled with the discrete IC's but it would be interesting to try, this is one of the later/current versions
http://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/a1150-a1152-a1153-a1155-a1156-a1157-and-a1158/22927
This is one of the pneumatic applications I use them on.
http://pdb.turck.de/media/_en/Anlagen/Datei_EDB/edb_4685766_gbr_en.pdf
Max.