12v hydogen cell wiring.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Joshua_bob, Sep 22, 2008.

  1. Joshua_bob

    Thread Starter New Member

    Sep 7, 2008
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    I'm having trouble wiring my hho cell to the vehicle. I've wired 10 gage from the battery to the 30mA 4 post relay. The relay is activated by the vehicles fuel pump wire which is considerable small gage. Then from the relay to a 30 amp type 2 circuit breaker. From there it goes to the cell positive on the positive and negitive to negitive. The problem I'm having is the cell only needs about 4 volts to work properly but is receiving 14v from the battery/altinator causing the cell to heat up and melt. If I put a nother cell in line the cells stay cool but the relay melts and the wire to the battery is extremely hot. Does anyone have some ideas on how to reduce the voltage to the cells without melting the relays? Basically I have run out of ideas and need some help. I look forward from hearing from everyone. Thanks Joshua_bob
     
  2. SgtWookie

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    Jul 17, 2007
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    I think it's closer to 1.5 to 2v drop per cell. Your mileage may vary - considerably.

    At a certain point, you won't get any more gas; but you will waste a lot of current.

    Are you building these cells yourself? If they're cheap to build, try putting 7 or 8 of them in series. Of course, you'll need to have safety precautions for each of them; even though they won't generate much gas, the gas they do generate is explosive.

    Expect for this thread to be moved to the "Other topics" forum.
     
  3. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    If you only have 2 plates, then 2 volts is enough. For that low a voltage, a big power resistor is about as good as any other solution. About 1/2 ohm, 100 watt.

    You might be interested in a discussion posted in a different area. We are quite sceptical of the actual benefit of these gas generators, largely because they use more power electrolyzing the water than can be gained back burning the gas. Check the Off Topic area if interested.
     
  4. Joshua_bob

    Thread Starter New Member

    Sep 7, 2008
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    I have had one cell working and i have seen an increase from 11.5 mpg to 20.5 mpg. It really works. The problem I'm having is the heat. You are both right. I only need about 2v per cell. I deally 7 would be perfect with 14v but I can't even get two cells to work without melting something. These are not cheap cells and each cell contains 8-3.5 inch 316 stainless plates. I just need help figuring out the wiring scheme. Can you help me out. Thanks Joshua_bob
     
  5. SgtWookie

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    Try re-configuring your cells so that each cell between a pair of plates is electrically isolated from the previous and next cells. That is, instead of applying +v to every other plate and -v to the remaining plates, only supply one end plate with +v and the far end plate with -v. The remaining plates should not touch anything else but whatever fluid solution you're using, and the fluid must be isolated in each cell. That way you'll get a 2v drop per individual cell within the cell, rather than 2v across the entire cell.

    If you had 9 plates in a cell, that would give you six individual 7v cells for 14v; the two endplates would be the only plates that received current.

    You will have to figure out a way to replenish the water that is converted to gas. If the solution covers the tops of all of the plates, it will create a short from one end plate to the other. If too much water is converted to gas, the electrolyte solution will become far more concentrated, and your efficiency will get worse.
     
  6. Joshua_bob

    Thread Starter New Member

    Sep 7, 2008
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    The cell is configured by having everyother plate being (+) and (-). They are seperated by plastic spacers 5mm apart and are at the bottom of a 10inch cylinder. They are completly submursed in water about 7 inches worth. So if I'm understanding you right the cell is short circuting itself out? I guess I don't see how it is doing this because of the insulating spacers and the every other spacing of the positive and the negitive. Please let me know because I'm out of ideas on how to reduce the heat by reducing the voltage. Thanks. :)
     
  7. SgtWookie

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    Well, your cell was designed to work that way; alternating + and - every plate.

    But unless you have seven of these cells hooked up in series, you're going to need some other way to drop the voltage down, and that means dissipating (wasting) a LOT of power as heat. Right now, you're finding out where the "weak spots" are by the wiring overheating and the relay burning out. If you have a wire get burned in one of your cells, you'll have an explosion.

    Your cells need a re-design. Or, you need to build five more of them, and run them in series. It sounds like that will take up a LOT of space.

    What is the vehicle that you're experimenting with?

    Is it carbureted or fuel injected?

    Does it have an ECM (engine control module)?

    Does it have O2 sensors?

    [eta]
    Actually, seems like what you need is a high-power DC-DC converter; something to step down your 14v to 2v, and put out perhaps 10-20A of current. That won't be a simple project; it'll take a good bit of engineering to come up with something efficient.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2008
  8. scubasteve_911

    Senior Member

    Dec 27, 2007
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    IMHO,

    Hydrogen fuel cells are a dead-end street, they only exist to make people think we are on the edge of a new discovery. Seriously, how does it make sense?

    Lots of Electricity + Water = Hydrogen and Oxygen (inefficient process 1)
    Lots of electrical power = liquid hydrogen for transport (inefficient process 2)
    Lots of money and time = enormous infrastructure to support hydrogen powered cars
    Liquid hydrogen + fuel cell = electricity (another inefficient process)

    Why aren't we charging NiMH or lithium ion batteries directly? Because that would put the oil companies and car manufacturers out of business...

    Steve
     
  9. Joshua_bob

    Thread Starter New Member

    Sep 7, 2008
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    The vehical is a 95 dodge. It is fuel injected. Has a MAP system and O2 sensor has been spaced to override the MAP. There is room for all 7 cells but I wanted to start with 3 and prove the experiment before jumping all in. I have installed a drop out relay of 3.6v but when testing the terminals on the single cell it still reads 13.6+/- volts. I need it to be at least 1/2 of that. Any ideas. Thanks. :):confused:
     
  10. SgtWookie

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    Jul 17, 2007
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    Here's a starter page on National Semiconductor for designing a "buck" converter.
    http://webench.national.com/ss1/ss?...O1V=2&O1I=10&op_TA=30&submit.x=61&submit.y=11

    You'll need to choose how much current you want to start with.

    Note the efficiency ratings vs the current outputs. Since the whole idea of your project is increasing efficiency, you want a design that's efficient as possible.

    However, I have no idea what your skill level is. These aren't going to be simple to build.

    [eta]
    I suggest that your very first step is to find out what current at what voltage gives you the best tradeoff for gas output vs electrical power consumption. That is your target for a "buck" converter. The best way to find this out would be to use a bench power supply in conjunction with a method for measuring your actual gas output, but those items are not cheap.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2008
  11. SgtWookie

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    OK, one really simple and cheap way to cut the current would be to use a headlamp as a big resistor. Not the headlamps that you use to drive with, of course - another headlamp.

    Many have three terminals; one for high beam, one for low beam, and one ground. You don't want the single high or low beams, you want the combo - not for light, but as a current limiter.

    Hook the ground wire of the lamp to the + side of your cell, and both the high beam and low beam connections to your relay.

    The trouble with the idea is that most of the power will be getting used up in the headlight instead of the cell where you want it to be working on making gas.

    Also, if the headlamp breaks while it's lit up and if you have any gas leaks, you will find out with a bang.
     
  12. beenthere

    Retired Moderator

    Apr 20, 2004
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    There is another influence on current through the cell - the concentration of electrolyte. I have no idea what you are using, but I wonder if some of the problem might be helped by using only a fraction of the stuff. It won't help as much as dropping the voltage with a resistor or a lamp, but it can't hurt to try.
     
  13. beenthere

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    On another note, I'd really like to see some test results on these mileage improvements. Your Dodge must have a big engine.

    Just for some figures, a 5 liter engine cruising at 2000 RPM will require 5000 liters of air/fuel each minute. Increasing the mileage by nearly 50% means lots of extra fuel somehow getting made.

    Other than the stalwarts who maintain they have discovered secrets that allow them to break down water faster than physics says it can be done, this just does not seem possible. I really wish somebody would demo one of these systems under controlled conditions.
     
  14. SgtWookie

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    That's an interesting possibility Beenthere, but unless our OP has an automated method of maintaining the electrolyte level by adding more water as it's consumed, the resistance of the cell will lower considerably as the electrolyte becomes more concentrated.

    He could track his current flow by measuring the voltage drop across his wiring. Since he's using AWG 10, he'll basically get 1mV per Ampere when measuring across a 1 foot length of wire. So, just add pure water to the cell until the measurement drops down to about 20mV, which would mean 20A current. When the measurement starts going back up, say to 25mV, just add more water again until it's back down to 20mV. Perhaps he could rig that up using a windshield washer pump out of a VW Jetta, driving it using a comparator.
     
  15. SgtWookie

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    I agree with you on wanting to see some "controlled conditions" results, Beenthere.

    There's a lot that folks can do to improve mileage without the "hydroxy" gizmos. Just simple regular maintenance and a light foot on the loud pedal can go a long ways.
     
  16. beenthere

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    I'd like to get some more information from the OP about his setup.
     
  17. SgtWookie

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    From the sounds of things, I'm thinking he's built a "Smack" type hydrolizer.

    I've attached a PDF that documents construction of that type.

    I'm not enthused about his controlling the relay that powers his hydrolizer to the fuel pump switch; that doesn't guarantee that the engine is running.

    It would be more realistic to sense the battery voltage vs the alternator voltage; because if the alternator is putting out power, you know that the engine is running. This reduces the possibility of accumulating a dangerous amount of gas.
     
  18. beenthere

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    It could be. It's interesting to note that the D9 document I looked at has the same drawing shown in the beginning of the Smack article.

    As I mentioned, though, a few liters/minute is wildly unlikely (cc's more like it), and any engine is going to need a lot more gas production to make a significant difference. At 2000 RPM, a 2000 cc engine will need 2000 liters of fuel/air every minute to keep running.
     
  19. SgtWookie

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    Yes, I found that .pdf in the same place as I found the D9 thing. Can't remember where offhand.
    Well, 2000 liters of fuel/air IF the engine were running @ WOT (wide-open throttle) and is turbocharged; a normally aspirated engine has too much drag through the air cleaner, throttle body, intake manifold and cylinder heads to allow for a complete filling of the cylinder; additionally incomplete scavenging of the exhaust gases due to system backpressure leaves the cylinder already partially filled with non-combustable exhaust gas.

    However, at idle and cruise throttle settings, it's typical to see 20-25 In. Hg. of manifold pressure (vacuum for those of you who insist on using that term). The closed throttle settings lead to a stratified charge, which is actually quite a bit more difficult to ignite reliably at idle than at more open throttle settings; so much so that in the early days of the Jaguar V12 engine, they had "vacuum retard" on the distributor timing instead of "vacuum advance". But I digress. :rolleyes:

    Now I don't know offhand what the rate of expansion is for atmosphere when it goes from 0 in hg to 20-24 in hg at sea level. But, measuring the duration of a fuel injector pulse during closed-throttle operation and WOT operation would give some large hints.

    Unfortunately, many ECM's go open loop under WOT conditions, so the fuel metering isn't as accurate as it could be. There just isn't enough time for the system to react to the O2 sensors (I'm talking decades-old equipment.) So, they opted to not burn up the engine instead of risking running it too lean.
     
  20. beenthere

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    Apr 20, 2004
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    Valid points about lower-than-atmospheric pressure in cylinders, but the deficit can hardly be as much as 50%. Gotta do some searching on H2 addition to fuel/air mix. Just can't see a near doubling of gas mileage with less than 1% HH0 addition.
     
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