All About Circuits Forum RC Phase Shift Oscillators
 User Name Remember Me? Password
 Register Blogs FAQ Members List Today's Posts Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

 Notices Welcome to the All About Circuits forums.Our forum is a place where thousands of students, hobbyists and professionals from around the world share knowledge and ideas. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

 General Electronics Chat Discussion forum for general chat about anything electronics related, including asking questions about material in the All About Circuits E-book, Worksheets, and Videos.

#1
01-04-2007, 04:34 AM
 Mazaag Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 255
RC Phase Shift Oscillators

Hey guys,
I wanted to know a bit more on RC Phase Shift Oscillators when I came across this website.. :

http://www.aikenamps.com/PhaseShiftOscillators.html

Under the " How do they work? " section , there is a sentence that reads as follows :

"In order to create and sustain an oscillation at a particular frequency, a circuit must have a gain higher than unity, and a total phase shift around the loop of 360 degrees (which is equivalent to 0 degrees, or positive feedback). "

I don't quite see why we need a gain higher than unity and a total phase shift of 360 degrees... could someone elaborate and explain that sentence ? ( probably an explanation on positive feedback and how it results in oscillations)

Thanks Guys..
#2
01-04-2007, 11:37 AM
 hgmjr Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tennessee, USA (GMT-6) Posts: 9,030 Blog Entries: 11

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mazaag .....I don't quite see why we need a gain higher than unity and a total phase shift of 360 degrees... could someone elaborate and explain that sentence ? ( probably an explanation on positive feedback and how it results in oscillations)....
The gain must be greater than unity to overcome the signal losses that will occur as it passes through the feedback network. The 360 degrees of phase shift is needed to satisfy the positive feedback requirement of the oscillator.

In a properly designed oscillator, these two conditions will usually be met at a specific frequency. This frequency is the one at which the oscillator will operate.

hgmjr
__________________
"No human being should be allowed to have this much fun."
hgmjr

May we never lose compassion for those who need our help and encouragement.
#3
01-04-2007, 04:08 PM
 Mazaag Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 255

What I don't understand is , how is the 360 degree phase shift related to positive feedback..? and why is it a requirement for oscillation.
#4
01-04-2007, 04:42 PM
 hgmjr Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tennessee, USA (GMT-6) Posts: 9,030 Blog Entries: 11

The term "positive feedback" simply means that the feedback signal is in phase with the input signal. Hence the signal must undergo a delay that is equivalent to one complete cycle at the frequency of the oscillator.

The amplifier inverts the signal which accounts for 180 degrees of the phase shift and the feedback network accounts for the remaining 180 degrees.

In the case of the example circuit you cited, the three RC integrators (if composed of identical components) each contributes 60 degrees to the overall phase shift at the frequency of oscillation. The result is the required 360 degrees needed to produce the oscillation.

You might think of the process as similar to manually keeping a pendulum swinging. You instinctively know that you must wait until the pendulum is at its peak before giving it a sustaining push. You will also know that you must replace the energy lost since the last time you gave it a push in order to keep it swinging through the same arc.

hgmjr
__________________
"No human being should be allowed to have this much fun."
hgmjr

May we never lose compassion for those who need our help and encouragement.
#5
01-05-2007, 03:43 AM
 Mazaag Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 255

Could you please explain to me how each stage contributes 60 degrees phase ? does the shift in phase depend on the frequency..? i'm confused...:S
#6
01-05-2007, 12:49 PM
 hgmjr Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tennessee, USA (GMT-6) Posts: 9,030 Blog Entries: 11

Not to worry. Confusion frequently accompanies the learning of a new concept.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mazaag does the shift in phase depend on the frequency..?
Yes. The shift in phase does depend on frequency.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mazaag Could you please explain to me how each stage contributes 60 degrees phase ?
Using the oscillator in the link you supplied as the circuit under dicussion, I should make clear that each RC stage contributes its portion toward the overall phase shift. This phase shift contribution by each RC stage is 60 degrees only if the feedback network is made up of three identical RC stages.

I call your attention to the plot that is included in the write-up at the link you provided. You will see that the y-axis is marked off in degrees of phase shift and the x-axis is a logarithmic plot of frequency. Set aside the blue and yellow traces for the moment as they relate to the phase-lead configuration. You will see that one of the phase-lag plots (the red trace) starts at zero frequency with a phase-shift of zero degrees and as the frequency increases the phase shift which is negative indicating delay increases to a value of -90 degrees. It never quite reaches -90 degrees, it just approaches -90 degress. The green trace is a different RC phase-lag stage. It goes through the same change but does so at a different rate due to the fact that is it made up of a different values of R and C. This limitation of the phase-lag RC circuit to -90 degrees is the reason that it takes more than two RC stages to accomplish the total -180 degrees.

By performing this plot for each of the three RC stages in the oscillator design, it is possible to predict the frequency of oscillation by summing the phase shift of all three RC stages at each frqeuency and noting at which frequency the three sum to 180 degress or in the phase lag case -180 degrees.

I think you would benefit by studying more material on RC circuits such at the material that is available on the AllAboutCircuits tutorial website. This would give you a stronger foundation for you to use in your study of oscillators.

hgmjr
__________________
"No human being should be allowed to have this much fun."
hgmjr

May we never lose compassion for those who need our help and encouragement.
#7
04-24-2008, 10:16 PM
 Audioguru Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 9,411

The RC networks load each other. That affects the loss of each one and the frequency of each one. If each RC network has a buffer stage between them then they won't load each other, the frequency will be easy to calculate and the gain of the opamp must be only a little more than 3.

Spice does not start an oscillation without some kind of kick.
#8
04-25-2008, 01:17 AM
 JoeJester Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Grand Prairie, TX, USA Posts: 2,346

Spice will start oscillations if you tell it to start with zero initial values ... or you can set the initial conditions.

Starting with zero initial values is like throwing on the power switch.
__________________
Joe
Navy Electricity and Electronics Training Series (NEETS) - pdf files - http://www.fcctests.com/neets/neets.htm
#9
04-25-2008, 05:15 AM
 The Electrician Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,722

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Audioguru The RC networks load each other. That affects the loss of each one and the frequency of each one. If each RC network has a buffer stage between them then they won't load each other, the frequency will be easy to calculate and the gain of the opamp must be only a little more than 3.
In this case, the gain needs to be 8.
#10
04-25-2008, 01:37 PM
 Audioguru Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 9,411

Quote:
 Originally Posted by The Electrician In this case, the gain needs to be 8.
You are correct. I was wrong because I was thinking about a Wien Bridge oscillator.

Texas Instruments has a pretty good article about sine-wave oscillators.
Attached Files
 sine-wave oscillators TI.pdf (253.8 KB, 157 views)

 Tags oscillators, phase, shift

 Related Site Pages Section Title Worksheet Opamp oscillator circuits Worksheet Positive feedback opamp circuits Worksheet Thyristor application circuits Worksheet Oscillator circuits Worksheet AC power Worksheet Series and parallel AC circuits Textbook AC instrumentation transducers : Ac Metering Circuits Textbook Oscillator circuits -- INCOMPLETE : Practical Analog Semiconductor Circuits Textbook BJT quirks : Bipolar Junction Transistors Textbook AC phase : Basic Ac Theory

 Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post zechyr The Projects Forum 4 11-27-2011 01:58 PM leoed General Electronics Chat 3 02-27-2009 09:07 AM beachwaterbunny Homework Help 2 11-19-2008 09:16 PM digitalenigma General Electronics Chat 9 05-01-2008 04:47 PM mksa Homework Help 2 05-09-2006 05:41 AM

 Thread Tools Display Modes Linear Mode

 Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules
 Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Electronics Forums     General Electronics Chat     The Projects Forum     Homework Help     Electronics Resources Software, Microcomputing, and Communications Forums     Programmer's Corner     Embedded Systems and Microcontrollers     Computing and Networks     Radio and Communications Circuits and Projects     The Completed Projects Collection Abstract Forums     Math     Physics     General Science All About Circuits Commmunity Forums     Off-Topic     The Flea Market     Feedback and Suggestions

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:08 PM.

User-posted content, unless source quoted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Public Domain License.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.