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 The Projects Forum Working on an electronics project and would like some suggestions, help or critiques? If you would like to comment or assist others with their projects, this is the place to do it.

#1
12-26-2009, 10:58 PM
 jgb New Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 6
Converting very high power 600hz to 60hz

I am developing a patent for a very high power (several hundred Kilowatts) electric generator whose output will be nominally 600hz, although that is widely but controllably variable. The voltage output has yet to be determined. I need to define a common method to reduce the frequency to a stable 60hz to potentially connect directly to the grid.

It is the method of creating the primary power that is the subject of the patent (which, obviously, I cannot divulge), and NOT its conversion to 60hz at some defined voltage. I only need to describe in general terms how that conversion is achieved, not describe it in detail as part of the patent.

If there is an COTS device available, so much the better, but I do NOT want a motor/generator solution.

Anybody got an idea or solution???

jgb
#2
12-26-2009, 11:10 PM
 Papabravo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Michigan, USA (GMT-5) Posts: 5,786

I hope you are not paying good money for the development of this patent. It is my belief that you are wasting your time and money since this is so close to the common 400 Hz. power generation on aircraft technology which is more than half a century old. The prior art will just devastate you.

As far as I know there are no other practical methods of electronically changing the frequency of an AC power source. Would the lack of such a method put a damper on your prospects?

It's not ideal but I would convert the 600 Hz. power to DC and use the DC to run a synchronous inverter at 60 Hz. There will be substantial losses in this process. I believe that 60% efficiency might be achievable.

I'd also like to point out that even if you had the patent I could duplicate what you are doing because you have to disclose what you are doing to get the patent. Then I can infringe on your patent, undercut your prices, dare you to sue, and bankrupt you before you could prevail in court. So good luck.
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Last edited by Papabravo; 12-26-2009 at 11:18 PM.
#3
12-27-2009, 02:20 AM
 AlexR Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Australia (UTC+10) Posts: 735

The obvious solution would seem to be to do it the same way as they do for HVDC power transmission. Use a solid state synchronous converter (thyristors, lots of very big ones) to first convert your 600Hz to DC then a second one to transform the DC to 60Hz.
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#4
12-27-2009, 05:15 AM
 THE_RB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,233

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jgb ... It is the method of creating the primary power that is the subject of the patent (which, obviously, I cannot divulge), and NOT its conversion to 60hz at some defined voltage. I only need to describe in general terms how that conversion is achieved, not describe it in detail as part of the patent. ...
Then it is irrelevant to the patent itself and you could just put "convert to 60Hz using conventional motor-generator technology".

You've already contradicted yourself in a very simple forum question, I'm not sure how good a job you will be able to do on the patent application.

You do know American patents are not worth toilet paper these days? You can google for just about any simple concept and find 5 or 6 different people with a US Patent for the same thing!
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#5
12-27-2009, 01:56 PM
 Papabravo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Michigan, USA (GMT-5) Posts: 5,786

Quote:
 Originally Posted by THE_RB ... You do know American patents are not worth toilet paper these days? You can google for just about any simple concept and find 5 or 6 different people with a US Patent for the same thing!
This was essentially my point. If the OP and his associates actually had something they would be starting a company and forget the patent system altogether. The fact that they are considering it proves that they have nothing of any importance. Stuff developed under a shroud of secrecy is often worthless when subjected to peer review which they would have know if their heads were outside their cloaks (of secrecy). Reminds me of the "cone of silence"
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#6
12-27-2009, 08:28 PM
 jgb New Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 6

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AlexR The obvious solution would seem to be to do it the same way as they do for HVDC power transmission. Use a solid state synchronous converter (thyristors, lots of very big ones) to first convert your 600Hz to DC then a second one to transform the DC to 60Hz.
Alex, thanks.
This is the only useful reply of the bunch.

As for running at 400hz, that can be done as easily as 600hz as well, and I can use aircraft technology as a basis. Except for the power levels my generator creates (many kilowatts).

Regarding the other replies.......

As for patent protection, I am not concerned you may "copy" what I have done and just change it a bit to infringe my patent, nor has my method been even tried before based on knowledgeable insiders opinions. Aside from that, patents can be and usually are, written in an all encompassing way to mitigate against near copycats. Just ask Microsoft and I4I.

Like I said, I am not patenting the power conversion, just the method of generation, and since you have absolutely zero idea of how I am generating that power; comments about my wasting my time is specious at best. I suspect you have never filed a patent application, especially through a good patent lawyer, otherwise you would know that the details of the idea are NOT divulged to anybody outside the patent office and your lawyer, until the patent is granted. All you can learn is that "a patent application" was filed by my lawyer, with no details, not even my name.

Also, once I file and receive a patent in 2 or more jurisdictions (US and Canada in my case) I can apply for an international patent, so even the Chinese can't copy it (legally anyway).

Anyway, I thank you all for taking the time to reply. I think I have my answer, so unless any of you wish to further debate what I said, I consider this thread closed.

jgb
#7
12-27-2009, 10:50 PM
 Papabravo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Michigan, USA (GMT-5) Posts: 5,786

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jgb Alex, thanks. This is the only useful reply of the bunch. As for running at 400hz, that can be done as easily as 600hz as well, and I can use aircraft technology as a basis. Except for the power levels my generator creates (many kilowatts). Regarding the other replies....... As for patent protection, I am not concerned you may "copy" what I have done and just change it a bit to infringe my patent, nor has my method been even tried before based on knowledgeable insiders opinions. Aside from that, patents can be and usually are, written in an all encompassing way to mitigate against near copycats. Just ask Microsoft and I4I. Like I said, I am not patenting the power conversion, just the method of generation, and since you have absolutely zero idea of how I am generating that power; comments about my wasting my time is specious at best. I suspect you have never filed a patent application, especially through a good patent lawyer, otherwise you would know that the details of the idea are NOT divulged to anybody outside the patent office and your lawyer, until the patent is granted. All you can learn is that "a patent application" was filed by my lawyer, with no details, not even my name. Also, once I file and receive a patent in 2 or more jurisdictions (US and Canada in my case) I can apply for an international patent, so even the Chinese can't copy it (legally anyway). Anyway, I thank you all for taking the time to reply. I think I have my answer, so unless any of you wish to further debate what I said, I consider this thread closed. jgb
Would it surprise you to learn that an aircraft system produces many kilowatts as well.

I made essentially the same suggestions as RB - great minds think alike

I currently have two patents which is two more than you have.

Based on your approach I'm questioning your credibility. I don't think you have any and I'd caution other forum members to approach you and your associates with great care. Our purpose on this forum has absolutely nothing to do with furthering your economic interests. I suggest you go find a forum on which you will receive a more sympathetic reception. Maybe one of the overunity groups which attract scam artists and other charlatans.

Lastly if you're so all fired smart what are you bothering us for. Take some of the money you're wasting on legal eagles and hire somebody to help you instead of trying to do it on the cheap. I invite you to take a hike.
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#8
12-28-2009, 12:42 AM
 SgtWookie Expert Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In the vast midwest of the USA; CST Posts: 22,031

C'mon folks, play nice.

The question was about a means to convert the 600-some-odd output to match the 60Hz grid, not about the patenting process, or how much it might cost to defend the patent.

Using banks of SCRs as syncronous rectifiers to get DC sounds good to me - along with the synchronous inverter. I think you'll be able to get much better than 60% efficiency with that, but you really don't need to go into many specifics about that, since you're dealing with the AC generation. Including 50Hz would probably be a good idea, since many areas of the world use 50Hz as the frequency of their power grid.

If you've figured out a more efficient way to generate electricity, more power to ya.

Good luck with your patent process - and actually getting your idea to market. It won't be easy.
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#9
12-28-2009, 01:24 AM
 BillB3857 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: St.Louis, MO area (GMT-6)_ Posts: 2,089

What kind of field supply does the generator have? If DC, change it to variable AC. We once had a 100HP 60Hz to 120Hz converter that was nothing more than a pair of large 3 phase motors coupled together. One was a standard induction motor to drive the rig and the other end, the generator section, instead of the standard rotor, had a wound 3 phase rotor. By running the phasing direction of the stator opposite the direction of rotation, 120Hz was pulled off of slip rings of the rotor. It would seem reasonable that using a phase locked loop to control field frequency, almost any frequency could be produced. In other words, modify the generation, not the result.
#10
12-28-2009, 09:26 PM
 jgb New Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 6

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Papabravo Would it surprise you to learn that an aircraft system produces many kilowatts as well. I made essentially the same suggestions as RB - great minds think alike I currently have two patents which is two more than you have. Based on your approach I'm questioning your credibility. I don't think you have any and I'd caution other forum members to approach you and your associates with great care. Our purpose on this forum has absolutely nothing to do with furthering your economic interests. I suggest you go find a forum on which you will receive a more sympathetic reception. Maybe one of the overunity groups which attract scam artists and other charlatans. Lastly if you're so all fired smart what are you bothering us for. Take some of the money you're wasting on legal eagles and hire somebody to help you instead of trying to do it on the cheap. I invite you to take a hike.
If I were you, Thank God I'm not, I would not rank my mind in the same class as RB, even after rereading his reply. I could not find a calculator with enough zeros right of the decimal point to quantify your greatness.

As far as aircraft systems generating kilowatts, yes they do, at 400hz and at high voltages as well to keep the weight of copper conductors and motors down. Most of the planes circuits operate at 400hz. Very little is converted to 50/60hz 110VAC.

And you also have zero idea how many patents I have. With your disdain for the patent process I am very surprised you have even one. Unless you got burned on them by either getting a cheap novice lawyer who couldn't devise bullet proof claims, or you did it to yourself by filing without a lawyer.

I write the technical description with drawings well enough that my 30 year experienced patents (only) lawyer fully understands it, and then he writes the claims. Works like a charm.

jgb

 Tags 600hz, 60hz, converting, high, power

 Related Site Pages Section Title Textbook Tesla polyphase induction motors : Ac Motors Textbook Synchronous Motors : Ac Motors

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