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Old 02-02-2009, 05:31 PM
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Farlander Farlander is offline
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Default MOLECULAR RESONANCE OF LIQUID H20

Hi People,
Wasn't sure where to post this so here we are. I'm trying to dissociate water molecules by using high voltage and/or mechanical vibration at the molecular resonant frequency of water. I'm going to assume for the sake of simplicity the gap between the electrodes will be 1mm.



You can see the graph showing the absorption spectrum. Absorption equates to greater bending of the molecule. This is copied from this page http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html . I don't understand what is cm^-1? What is wave number? Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?
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Old 02-02-2009, 06:10 PM
KL7AJ KL7AJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farlander View Post
Hi People,
Wasn't sure where to post this so here we are. I'm trying to dissociate water molecules by using high voltage and/or mechanical vibration at the molecular resonant frequency of water. I'm going to assume for the sake of simplicity the gap between the electrodes will be 1mm.



You can see the graph showing the absorption spectrum. Absorption equates to greater bending of the molecule. This is copied from this page http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html . I don't understand what is cm^-1? What is wave number? Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?

I'm pretty sure the molecular resonance has little to do with how easy it is to dissociate water. If such were the case, microwave ovens would dissociate water all the time, which we know doesn't happen.

D.C. voltage is as effective as anything for dissociating water.

eric
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Old 02-02-2009, 06:53 PM
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KL7AJ-
I respectfully disagree. True, microwaves agitate the water molecules, causing increasing temperature
Voltage fields around water align the dipolar molecule.
So, when the molecule is at it's greatest "flexed" position, or "bent" or "squished" whatever, it is elongated, and the electron bonds are weaker. At this instant it should be A LOT easier to separate the water with voltage.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:30 PM
jpanhalt jpanhalt is online now
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Do you have any idea to what frequencies those wavenumbers correspond? You will need something better than a CMOS 555 for your oscillator.

Metaphysics might be a better forum on which to post this project.

John
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:34 PM
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The molecular ressonant frequency of water is in the near-infrared. The absorption spectrum has nothing to do with "bending" the molecules.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:07 PM
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Its a common talking point with the whole HHO generator crowd.. Some ppl have claimed that microwave/IR excitation makes electrolysis energy feasible for HHO production.. (Obviously I've never seen this successfully demonstrated..
Anyways, the wavenumber, or cm^-1 means wavelengths per cm..
the wavength would be (1/wavenumber)cm.. So your graph is ranged from 2.5-3.0microns, or 5-6x the size of visible light waves..
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:26 PM
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COOL
I learn so much awesome stuff here...
Thanks

My point about absorption is that maximum absorption occurs at resonance. Absorption is literally transferring energy into physical motion of the molecules. In the case of water, being it's a triangular bond, the molecule is actually getting squeezed like a thigh master. When it's squeezed all the way, its elongated, and the bond is weakened. I recently read about someone using a quartz transducer as the cell container to facilitate this kind of resonance, and then using HV electrodes housed in the container to break the bonds.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farlander View Post
Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?
Why doesn't someone just come out and answer the question? The frequency is of the order of 100 TeraHz, or 100,000 GigaHz, or 100,000,000 MegaHz, or 100,000,000,000 kiloHz or 100,000,000,000,000 Hz.

In other words, an infrared laser is what you need. Of course, it's not going to work, but try if you want. But be careful because 3 microns is safe for the retina of the eye, but can damage the cornea since the radiation is absorbed so well that the thin layer of water takes all the energy. - OUCH! Buy the proper laser safety glasses, ... and some tissues so you can cry when you realize you wasted your time and money.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:06 PM
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Ouch so harsh, but thank you for the answer.

Interesting that you should metion lasers because that's exactly what Meyers incorporated into his last system. The cell electrodes had slots cut in them for laser light to "prime" the water.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:42 PM
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Theres still those dang laws of thermodynamics to overcome.. Electrolysis of water for HHO just isn't a feasible energy source.. Its like buying new cars and hoping to make money reselling them..
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