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#1
02-02-2009, 05:31 PM
 Farlander Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 158
MOLECULAR RESONANCE OF LIQUID H20

Hi People,
Wasn't sure where to post this so here we are. I'm trying to dissociate water molecules by using high voltage and/or mechanical vibration at the molecular resonant frequency of water. I'm going to assume for the sake of simplicity the gap between the electrodes will be 1mm.

You can see the graph showing the absorption spectrum. Absorption equates to greater bending of the molecule. This is copied from this page http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html . I don't understand what is cm^-1? What is wave number? Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?
#2
02-02-2009, 06:10 PM
 KL7AJ E-book Developer Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 1,540

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Farlander Hi People, Wasn't sure where to post this so here we are. I'm trying to dissociate water molecules by using high voltage and/or mechanical vibration at the molecular resonant frequency of water. I'm going to assume for the sake of simplicity the gap between the electrodes will be 1mm. You can see the graph showing the absorption spectrum. Absorption equates to greater bending of the molecule. This is copied from this page http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html . I don't understand what is cm^-1? What is wave number? Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?

I'm pretty sure the molecular resonance has little to do with how easy it is to dissociate water. If such were the case, microwave ovens would dissociate water all the time, which we know doesn't happen.

D.C. voltage is as effective as anything for dissociating water.

eric
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#3
02-02-2009, 06:53 PM
 Farlander Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 158

KL7AJ-
I respectfully disagree. True, microwaves agitate the water molecules, causing increasing temperature
Voltage fields around water align the dipolar molecule.
So, when the molecule is at it's greatest "flexed" position, or "bent" or "squished" whatever, it is elongated, and the electron bonds are weaker. At this instant it should be A LOT easier to separate the water with voltage.
#4
02-02-2009, 07:30 PM
 jpanhalt E-book Developer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ohio, USA(GMT-5) Posts: 3,664

Do you have any idea to what frequencies those wavenumbers correspond? You will need something better than a CMOS 555 for your oscillator.

Metaphysics might be a better forum on which to post this project.

John
#5
02-02-2009, 07:34 PM
 thingmaker3 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Location: Rural, Oregon GMT -8 Posts: 5,072 Blog Entries: 6

The molecular ressonant frequency of water is in the near-infrared. The absorption spectrum has nothing to do with "bending" the molecules.
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"I want to establish in your mind very clearly that you must not think I deny all that I do not admit. On the contrary, I think there are many things which may be true, and which I shall receive as such hereafter, though I do not as yet receive them; but that is not because there is any proof to the contrary, but that the proof in the affirmative is not yet sufficient for me"
#6
02-02-2009, 10:07 PM
 triggernum5 Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 216

Its a common talking point with the whole HHO generator crowd.. Some ppl have claimed that microwave/IR excitation makes electrolysis energy feasible for HHO production.. (Obviously I've never seen this successfully demonstrated..
Anyways, the wavenumber, or cm^-1 means wavelengths per cm..
the wavength would be (1/wavenumber)cm.. So your graph is ranged from 2.5-3.0microns, or 5-6x the size of visible light waves..
#7
02-02-2009, 10:26 PM
 Farlander Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 158

COOL
I learn so much awesome stuff here...
Thanks

My point about absorption is that maximum absorption occurs at resonance. Absorption is literally transferring energy into physical motion of the molecules. In the case of water, being it's a triangular bond, the molecule is actually getting squeezed like a thigh master. When it's squeezed all the way, its elongated, and the bond is weakened. I recently read about someone using a quartz transducer as the cell container to facilitate this kind of resonance, and then using HV electrodes housed in the container to break the bonds.
#8
02-02-2009, 10:38 PM
 AliceT Guest Posts: n/a

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Farlander Can we use this information to extrapolate the proper pulse frequency?
Why doesn't someone just come out and answer the question? The frequency is of the order of 100 TeraHz, or 100,000 GigaHz, or 100,000,000 MegaHz, or 100,000,000,000 kiloHz or 100,000,000,000,000 Hz.

In other words, an infrared laser is what you need. Of course, it's not going to work, but try if you want. But be careful because 3 microns is safe for the retina of the eye, but can damage the cornea since the radiation is absorbed so well that the thin layer of water takes all the energy. - OUCH! Buy the proper laser safety glasses, ... and some tissues so you can cry when you realize you wasted your time and money.
#9
02-02-2009, 11:06 PM
 Farlander Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 158

Ouch so harsh, but thank you for the answer.

Interesting that you should metion lasers because that's exactly what Meyers incorporated into his last system. The cell electrodes had slots cut in them for laser light to "prime" the water.
#10
02-02-2009, 11:42 PM
 triggernum5 Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 216

Theres still those dang laws of thermodynamics to overcome.. Electrolysis of water for HHO just isn't a feasible energy source.. Its like buying new cars and hoping to make money reselling them..

 Tags h20, liquid, molecular, resonance

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