I want to learn more....

Hello,

Maybe I'm repeating something already discussed before in previous threads and I hope it's not the case.

I was discussing with a friend a few days ago who claimed the science doesn't take any assumptions on anything at all but instead relies on facts and theories and that the Big Bang Theory marks the beginning of time. I'm having a hard time thinking about it, could be because I've not been touching physics of astronomy for a while now being too much into electronics or maybe I've not been focussed recently. Anyone one willing to start a new debate on the subject which could lead to discussing philosophy and religion at the same time, just to mention some, if that's not too much asking?

Thanks.

I respect what others believe, but I can't see how they believe in the Big Bang theory. Life on Earth is so complex and interesting that I dont see how a bang could result in humans, billions of plants, insects, animals. We've inhabited this planet for quite some time and there is still numerous things we haven't found or discovered. I believe there was a plan.

They don't really "believe" but rather say that the Big Band is a fact and there are evidences to support it. As for life, abiogenesis, what does that tell you? - (I'm not really an expert in that field).

Thanks.

If I'm swinging a hammer and mash my thumb there is a correlation. If you bother looking at the evidence instead of relying on faith you would see there is a reason the big bang theory exists. Faith is important, but it is the antithesis of science.

Science doesn't have all the answers, but it asks the questions. The questions lead to possible answers, which lead to more questions. Declaring the universe is 6,500 years old and stopping there works if you live in the deep desert, and have to sweat hard for every meal, but it doesn't ask questions and doesn't improve your life in the material sense, though it might get you through the long hard day.

I'm a firm believer in God, but I think he is deeper than the people to claim to understand how he works. He does the work His way, and science is His tool, how He sculpted us and all we see. Belief in magic is faith, belief in physical realities through the eyes of religion has kept societies in the dark ages, belief in science requires evidence. I think science goes a lot further to understanding God than blind faith.

Do you think the Laws of Motion, or Thermodynamics, or electricity were created by faith? Do you think any society could have gone as far as ours using faith as an explanation for everything?

Most religions rely on faith, including Islam (which is not doing itself any favors at the moment with its more fanatical followers actions), Christianity, Judaism, or any of the thousands of others, past, present, or future.

BTW: take a really close look at my Avitar's caption.

Why was the Bible not protected then? After all isn't it the Book of God as well?

Also, religion consider science, but does science consider religion? Or is it even relevant for science to consider religion? Is the "format" compatible for an analysis between the two?

R!f@@ said:

If you want to learn about life, then read the Quran and it's original meaning.
It shows us the ways and ways of the universe. Everything is written in it, every single theory that they claimed that they found and every belief what we believe is there written ages ago. And it has not changed, like the bible which they have added and cutout the things they want to satisfy there needs and rule over you. The bible is a fake and it's been modified the way they want, but not Quran, no one, I mean no one can alter it's writing in any way, it is one thing that god promised to protect. And he has protected for decades, it is in the ppl's arms and there hearts, and all are the same since the beginning. I am willing to bet my life on the fact that no one can change the holy Quran. It's not that I don't respect others but it something that I believe in and finds piece with in..

PS .. did you heart about that denmark guy who got burned alive due to his actions..

Rifaa

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This is over the edge. I won't mention incidents, but a lot of evil has been done in the name of Islam recently. I do not blame Islam, but the attitudes of men who have zero tolerance for any ideas other than their own, and much hate in their hearts.

The Qua-ran, like most religious texts, also has a lot of beliefs that bear close scrutiny. How old do you think the universe is? Does it explain DNA? Or other worlds? Speed of Light? Radio? Expansion of the Universe?

Nanophotonics said:

Why was the Bible not protected then? After all isn't it the Book of God as well?

Also, religion consider science, but does science consider religion? Or is it even relevant for science to consider religion? Is the "format" compatible for an analysis between the two?

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I think it is too soon for science to consider religion. We haven't even approached those questions yet. You want a good read on the subject, read "Contact" by Carl Sagan. It touches on issues such as how an advanced civilization might approach God that the movie never brought up. According to the book, we're not there yet, but close.

Bill_Marsden said:

but the attitudes of men who have zero tolerance for any ideas other than their own, and much hate in their hearts.

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I do appreciate that their tolerance is low, but it should not be generalised as I now many muslims who do have a high level of tolerance. I think that's because they are "educated". Unfortunately even though countries of the middle east have oil, believe me, their population are not so well-off, which could explain their lack of education and narrow thinking. As for hate, one should think why they started to hate in the first place. Today Iraq is a war torn country, one never knows when the orphans war made over there would decide to take revenge on our children one day. So, let's hope for forgiveness. Anyway, let's not deviate from the main topic. Let's focus on science rather than specific religion.

Bill_Marsden said:

The Qua-ran, like most religious texts, also has a lot of beliefs that bear close scrutiny. How old do you think the universe is? Does it explain DNA? Or other worlds? Speed of Light? Radio? Expansion of the Universe?

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As precise as that, I don't think so. But childbirth is amazingly explained. I appreciate it.

[21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe? - Quran I've read.

Nanophotonics said:

As precise as that, I don't think so. But childbirth is amazingly explained. I appreciate it.

[21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe? - Quran I've read.

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Thing is, trying to use religious texts for science is as flawed as using science as religion. The two are separate, and whilst they may yet meet, the time is not yet.

There are reasons, very good ones, why the Theory of Evolution and Big Bang Theories exist. They explain everyday processes (that take a long time to mature) in a way that doesn't require divine intervention. Once divine intervention is invoked, all discussion ceases, and learning stops.

Questions are the path to true learning, which most religions discourage. I have a problem with any religion (including my faith) telling me how to think, what to think. I have a conscience, I'll let that be my guide. I suspect my morals are better than a lot of the preachers (or Ayatollah's) out there.

Bill_Marsden said:

Thing is, trying to use religious texts for science is as flawed as using science as religion. The two are separate, and whilst they may yet meet, the time is not yet.

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Hmm..... Are you sure? I don't know.

Bill_Marsden said:

There are reasons, very good ones, why the Theory of Evolution and Big Bang Theories exist. They explain everyday processes (that take a long time to mature) in a way that doesn't require divine intervention. Once divine intervention is invoked, all discussion ceases, and learning stops.

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I fully agree.

Bill_Marsden said:

Questions are the path to true learning, which most religions discourage. I have a problem with any religion (including my faith) telling me how to think, what to think. I have a conscience, I'll let that be my guide. I suspect my morals are better than a lot of the preachers (or Ayatollah's) out there.

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I agree to some extent, because, what if you were not living in a civilised society, would you still justify your conscience/instinct as best way to follow? - It could but, do you think it would be "good" if one is not civilised/educated?

hee hee interesting topic.
The bible was not protected because every book which is said to be god's word are canceled once the Quran arrived. The bible was flawed in the hands of men, that is why it was condemned in Islam. So the god promised to protect the Quran and it to be his ways.

Originally Posted by Bill_Marsden
The Qua-ran, like most religious texts, also has a lot of beliefs that bear close scrutiny. How old do you think the universe is? Does it explain DNA? Or other worlds? Speed of Light? Radio? Expansion of the Universe?

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And yes Quran clearly states about life and universe. You might have missed it. Every thing current scientists are finding is stated in quran and they know it. Still they deny. This is human, flawed in every way.

I do not believe the Muslims are killing innocent children, because Muslims don't, if they do they are not Muslims, from that point he is an infidel. Even though he say he is Muslim, it is the faith and it is in the heart of men

Rifaa

R!f@@ said:

The bible was not protected because every book which is said to be god's word are canceled once the Quran arrived.

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I don't think so. Does it imply that before the Quran arrived, the Bible was still being protected? If that's so, then why the Quran arrived in the first place if the Bible was still under protection?

R!f@@ said:

I do not believe the Muslims are killing innocent children, because Muslims don't, if they do they are not Muslims, from that point he is an infidel. Even though he say he is Muslim, it is the faith and it is in the heart of men

Rifaa

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I agree.

Yep, and they too would claim whatever they do for the one true religion is justified. Once you have declared your way is the only way, the rest is inevitable. This is why we don't discuss religion on a site like this, or in a Masonic Lodge either. To be a Mason you must have a believe in a Supreme Being, and it stops there. Discussion of specific religions is forbidden, we go to socialize, not proselytize.

Part of the key to tolerance it NOT declaring you have all the answers (even if you think you do), because someone else is bound to feel as strongly about their believes as you. People kill for these beliefs, and there are no sides that won't.

This is why I said you were out of bounds. As a Mason we respect that line.

This site, All About Circuits, resembles a Masonic Lodge very closely in that respect.

Masonic Lodge, interesting.

I agree on the beliefs side. Each party is deeply convinced about their faith. So a way out is very much impossible. Both stand firm and an attempt to proselytize is very undesirable.

"People kill for these beliefs" - Unfortunately for believers, atheists like that very much on the other side to further disbelieve.

Yeah, but Athiests tend to get as violent in defense of their beliefs. Go figure. Faith (and athiesism is also a faith, of a sort) tends to bring out passion in people, which can show in many different ways.

Atheism a "faith". I did ask them that, but they said no. Like they see the world simply as it looks. They prefer scientific theories and facts rather than beliefs in the "invisible". I don't know whether it is a problem of word choice in clearly explaining oneself. Anyway, am off, I'll catch up tomorrow. See ya.

IMHO, atheism is very much a faith, and for many of them their faith in scientific theories is every bit as strong as a believer's faith in the holy text of his or her choice. The DNA evidence that we have seems to be in line with evolution as Darwin described it, which provides a mechanism for incremental changes in animals and plants over long periods of time. As far as I know, there is zero evidence of life forming on its own out of a steamy soup of amino acids, as some of the more fervent proponents of evolution propose. Once we start extrapolating beyond the limits of the data we have, we're then in the realm of belief, not science.

Another religion not mentioned in this thread, but that should be mentioned is environmentalism. Michael Crichton gave an interesting talk titled "Environmentalism as a Religion" at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco in 2003. http://www.michaelcrichton.net/speech-environmentalismaseligion.html

Many of his speeches are posted at this site (http://www.michaelcrichton.net). He was a real treasure who died before his time.
Mark

You are brought into this world in your families environment,you will return
to the earth by your family for eternal peace. Along the the way you will choose
an environment of your chooseing.You will become a leader or follow a leader.