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Paul Burridge
Guest

 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:51 pm    Post subject: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice Hi all, I flicked through Google last night and saw some quite simple set-up whereby, given an accurate enough transistor model, one might measure S - parmaters for any device under consideration purely via simulation. Is this feasible? Or is it really only possible to reliably do this empirically with real components? Thanks, p. -- "What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.
Kevin Aylward
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

Paul Burridge wrote:
 Quote: Hi all, I flicked through Google last night and saw some quite simple set-up whereby, given an accurate enough transistor model, one might measure S - parmaters for any device under consideration purely via simulation. Is this feasible? Or is it really only possible to reliably do this empirically with real components?

I dont follow what you are asking for. A bit of confusion between
"measurement" and "simulation" here.

*All* the parameter sets (h, s, abcd etc) are mathematicly *identically*
equivalent. A far as simulation goes, it don't care a toss what set you
use.

S - parameters came into use for R.F, because it is easier to *measure*
S parameters in the real world at high frequencies. By and large, S
parameters themselves, in my opinion, are a pain in the arse. If you can
get a good spice model at h.f, you are better using it, especially,
because this will allow one to do transient simulation as well.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Paul Burridge
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:38:22 GMT, "Kevin Aylward"
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

 Quote: I flicked through Google last night and saw some quite simple set-up whereby, given an accurate enough transistor model, one might measure S - parmaters for any device under consideration purely via simulation. Is this feasible? Or is it really only possible to reliably do this empirically with real components? I dont follow what you are asking for. A bit of confusion between "measurement" and "simulation" here.

I think you know. I've since Googled a bit more and found that
"gwhite" (can't recall his first name off hand, but he's the author of
the VHF/UHF DX Handbook) posted to one of the radio amateur groups
that he'd had more accurate results 'measuring' S-parameters from
Spice simulations than the manufacturers provided in their datasheets.
He was able to 'adjudicate' between the sheets and Spice by virtue of

 Quote: *All* the parameter sets (h, s, abcd etc) are mathematicly *identically* equivalent. A far as simulation goes, it don't care a toss what set you use.

True enough.

 Quote: S - parameters came into use for R.F, because it is easier to *measure* S parameters in the real world at high frequencies. By and large, S parameters themselves, in my opinion, are a pain in the arse.

Indeed? I'm surprised. Measuring them might be a pain in the arse, but
once you have them, they do make it much easier to visualise any
mis-match when subsequently plotted on Mr. Smith's chart.

 Quote: If you can get a good spice model at h.f, you are better using it, especially, because this will allow one to do transient simulation as well.

Whatever, but what I'm trying to arrive at is a circuit simulation
which will enable the modulus and phase-angle components of reflected
waves to be displayed via Spice. If you or anyone else can come up
with an accurate way of doing so, then I'd be interested to hear about
it.

p.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.
Robert
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

 Quote: Whatever, but what I'm trying to arrive at is a circuit simulation which will enable the modulus and phase-angle components of reflected waves to be displayed via Spice. If you or anyone else can come up with an accurate way of doing so, then I'd be interested to hear about it.

Easily done.

The biggest problem is the S Parameters vary with bias on the Transistor.
But you should get reasonable results at different bias points off a good
Spice Model.

I have an old 2 page App Note from Wes Hayard (W7ZOI) in DOC format that
describes a setup that will work in all the various Spices. If you provide
an address (suitably camouflaged) I'll send it.

But essentially you drive the device you want to measure the S Parameters
with a 2 volt AC source through a 50 ohm series resistor. The other end of
the source is tied to ground. That is, if the impedance of your system is 50
ohms.

In shunt with this connection to the device is one side of another 1V AC
source, set so it subtracts 1V of the applied 2V signal on the side not
connected to the device input.

That side of the 1V AC source is tied to ground through a high value (1Meg)
resistor.

Then the voltage at the top of that high value resistor will be S11.

If you tie the output connection of the device you're trying to measure the
S Parameters to 50 ohms to ground (use a coupling cap if necessary) then the
voltage at the top of that 50 ohm load to ground will be S21.

Turn this around to measure S22 and S12.

Robert
Chaos Master
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

(sci.electronics.cad) at the date of (Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:39:02 GMT)?

[S Parameters in SPICE]
 Quote: I have an old 2 page App Note from Wes Hayard (W7ZOI) in DOC format that describes a setup that will work in all the various Spices. If you provide an address (suitably camouflaged) I'll send it.

I am interested in this app note, can you send it to me?

renan_tdb AT yahoo DOT com DOT br

[]s
--
Chaos Master®, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP!
MSN: wizard_of_yendor[@]hotmail[.]com http://marreka.no-ip.com
"You're guilty; the punishment is death for all who live."
-- Iron Maiden, "Out Of The Silent Planet"
Paul Burridge
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:58 am    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:39:02 GMT, "Robert" <robert@yahoo.com> wrote:

 Quote: I have an old 2 page App Note from Wes Hayard (W7ZOI) in DOC format that describes a setup that will work in all the various Spices. If you provide an address (suitably camouflaged) I'll send it.

Sounds just what I'm looking for. Thanks, Robert. Address is
pb@osiris1.co.uk with no mods needed to reach me. I just don't care!

Best regards,

paul
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.
Kevin Aylward
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

Paul Burridge wrote:
 Quote: On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:38:22 GMT, "Kevin Aylward" salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote: I flicked through Google last night and saw some quite simple set-up whereby, given an accurate enough transistor model, one might measure S - parmaters for any device under consideration purely via simulation. Is this feasible? Or is it really only possible to reliably do this empirically with real components? I dont follow what you are asking for. A bit of confusion between "measurement" and "simulation" here. I think you know. I've since Googled a bit more and found that "gwhite" (can't recall his first name off hand, but he's the author of the VHF/UHF DX Handbook) posted to one of the radio amateur groups that he'd had more accurate results 'measuring' S-parameters from Spice simulations than the manufacturers provided in their datasheets. He was able to 'adjudicate' between the sheets and Spice by virtue of having access to a decent VNA. *All* the parameter sets (h, s, abcd etc) are mathematicly *identically* equivalent. A far as simulation goes, it don't care a toss what set you use. True enough. S - parameters came into use for R.F, because it is easier to *measure* S parameters in the real world at high frequencies. By and large, S parameters themselves, in my opinion, are a pain in the arse. Indeed? I'm surprised. Measuring them might be a pain in the arse, but once you have them, they do make it much easier to visualise any mis-match when subsequently plotted on Mr. Smith's chart.

I don't use Mr. Smith, that's an even bigger pain in the arse.

 Quote: If you can get a good spice model at h.f, you are better using it, especially, because this will allow one to do transient simulation as well. Whatever, but what I'm trying to arrive at is a circuit simulation which will enable the modulus and phase-angle components of reflected waves to be displayed via Spice.

Why? These "waves" do not "exist", i.e they are imaginary, in a lumped
component model such as a spice one.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Paul Burridge
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 06:28:15 GMT, "Kevin Aylward"
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

 Quote: Why? These "waves" do not "exist", i.e they are imaginary, in a lumped component model such as a spice one.

I know what you mean, Kev, but this is the very reason I'm posting the
question. It *is* possible to contrive a simulation to establish a
device's S -parameters in Spice, notwithstanding real-world
distributed reactances. I simply would like to know *how* it's done!
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.
Jim Thompson
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:06:52 +0100, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

 Quote: Hi all, I flicked through Google last night and saw some quite simple set-up whereby, given an accurate enough transistor model, one might measure S - parmaters for any device under consideration purely via simulation. Is this feasible? Or is it really only possible to reliably do this empirically with real components? Thanks, p.

It's in this list of app notes:

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
mehran gupta
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

The article below shows a good method to measure the S-parameters
using Micro-Cap. It should work with any simulation programme.

http://www.spectrum-soft.com/news/winter2001/sparameters.shtm

mehran

Paul Burridge <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in message news:<es1ch0d2ma03ihnaecee2jckm1o6m384d0@4ax.com>...
 Quote: On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 06:28:15 GMT, "Kevin Aylward" salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote: Why? These "waves" do not "exist", i.e they are imaginary, in a lumped component model such as a spice one. I know what you mean, Kev, but this is the very reason I'm posting the question. It *is* possible to contrive a simulation to establish a device's S -parameters in Spice, notwithstanding real-world distributed reactances. I simply would like to know *how* it's done!
Paul Burridge
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

On 12 Aug 2004 08:39:20 -0700, mehran_gupta@yahoo.com (mehran gupta)
wrote:

 Quote: The article below shows a good method to measure the S-parameters using Micro-Cap. It should work with any simulation programme. http://www.spectrum-soft.com/news/winter2001/sparameters.shtm mehran

Many thanks, Mehran. That's just the kind of info I'd be trawling the
'net for and been unable to find.

Regards, Paul
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.
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