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Microwave Magnetron Projects
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Author Message
Don Klipstein
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:28 am    Post subject: Re: Microwave Magnetron Projects

In <21big3pn7n9mh9hlp383hvo252p5nbs7ku@4ax.com>, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Quote:
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <paul@hovnanian.com> hath wroth:

There are methods for doing so. The Next Big Thing in lighting is
microwave powered gas discharge lighting. No electrodes to wear out.

I hope not. None of them have come close to meeting FCC Part 15
unintentional radiator limits. The original microwave sulfur lamp was
originally promoted by Fusion Lighting in the mid 1990's. The FCC
sorta, kinda, maybe, somewhat killed the idea in 2003. Achrived web
site at:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010209135028/http://www.fusionlighting.com/

"Sulfur Lamps"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_lamp

Says the sulfur bulb has a design life expectancy of 60,000 hours, and
that the magnetron needed to supply the microwaves has a design life
expectancy of 15,000-20,000 hours.
Meanwhile, I remember from elsewhere even shorter life expectancy being
usual for magnetrons - I generally got the impression of 10,000 hours.

Quote:
"FCC Rejects Satellite Radio's Petition to Ban RF Lights in 2.45 GHz
Band"
http://www.rwonline.com/dailynews/one.php?id=6211

I think that would support a contention that FCC did not kill the sulfur
lamp.

The Wiki article even notes that FCC in 2003 terminated a proceeding
started in 1998 that otherwise would have increased regulation of RF
emissions from sulfur lamp systems.

<SNIP>

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
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Jeff Liebermann
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Microwave Magnetron Projects

don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) hath wroth:

Quote:
"Sulfur Lamps"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_lamp

Says the sulfur bulb has a design life expectancy of 60,000 hours, and
that the magnetron needed to supply the microwaves has a design life
expectancy of 15,000-20,000 hours.
Meanwhile, I remember from elsewhere even shorter life expectancy being
usual for magnetrons - I generally got the impression of 10,000 hours.

Google found claims of 2,000 hours for a microwave oven magnetron.
<http://gallawa.com/microtech/Ch7Pg6.html>
My guess would be even less based on personal experience with bottom
of the line consumer microwave ovens. I wonder if they have a runtime
timer built into the clock/timer circuitry?

Quote:
"FCC Rejects Satellite Radio's Petition to Ban RF Lights in 2.45 GHz
Band"
http://www.rwonline.com/dailynews/one.php?id=6211

I think that would support a contention that FCC did not kill the sulfur
lamp.

The Wiki article even notes that FCC in 2003 terminated a proceeding
started in 1998 that otherwise would have increased regulation of RF
emissions from sulfur lamp systems.

True. I tried to be subtle. My opinion is that the FCC did not find
it expedient to do anything nice for XM or Sirius. The problem was
that they also had issues pending over their terrestrial repeaters and
Wi-Fi interference.
<http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/policy/story/0,10801,69893,00.html>
<http://www.news.com/2100-1033-933965.html>
The satellite people are also having problems with the WiMax users:
<http://www.asteriskvoipnews.com/wimax/wimax_vendors_bemoan_satellite_radio_interference_in_the_2_ghz_band.html>
<http://satelliteradiotechworld.blogspot.com/2007/09/xmsirius-reject-wcs-coalitions-proposal.html>
What the FCC apparently did was hand the interference issues back to
XM and Sirius with subtle hints that they should clean up their design
with better BPF filters and fix their own technical problems first.

In the case of the sulfur lamp, it was easy because during the 5 years
it took for the FCC to render a non-decision, Fusion Lighting dropped
the product and disappeared. There was no need to protect the bird
people from a non-existent product. The technical problem was that
there was no way Fusion Lighting could meet Part 15 certification
requirements. The bulbs leaked RF badly and no amount of RF shielding
seemed to be effective. However, that leaves the door open to other
companies to try and get it type certified.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are those of the author and do not
necessarily represent the hidden agendas and political intrigues of
the FCC.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Joel Kolstad
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Microwave Magnetron Projects

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:21big3pn7n9mh9hlp383hvo252p5nbs7ku@4ax.com...
Quote:
Unfortunately, raising the dead is a common preoccupation in
electronics.

Actually I would suggest that "raising the dead" by those who are well aware
of the initial causes of death is a very good idea: As technology advices,
many old ideas that were once impractical become quite viable.

I would agree that (too) many people "raising the dead" aren't even aware that
their "new" idea is quite old nor what the appropriate history is -- this
seems to be the case with some fo the folks promoting wireless re-charging
stations these days.
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Tim Williams
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Microwave Magnetron Projects

You remind me of my class D tube amp project.
http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms/Elec_Compound.html

I do wonder if anyone's ever done it before, you know, in history...

Tim

--
Deep Fryer: A very philosophical monk.
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Joel Kolstad" <JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:13gkmhoqf4ks4c8@corp.supernews.com...
Quote:
"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:21big3pn7n9mh9hlp383hvo252p5nbs7ku@4ax.com...
Unfortunately, raising the dead is a common preoccupation in
electronics.

Actually I would suggest that "raising the dead" by those who are well
aware
of the initial causes of death is a very good idea: As technology
advices,
many old ideas that were once impractical become quite viable.

I would agree that (too) many people "raising the dead" aren't even aware
that
their "new" idea is quite old nor what the appropriate history is -- this
seems to be the case with some fo the folks promoting wireless
re-charging
stations these days.

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Jeff Liebermann
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Microwave Magnetron Projects

"Joel Kolstad" <JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> hath wroth:

Quote:
"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:21big3pn7n9mh9hlp383hvo252p5nbs7ku@4ax.com...
Unfortunately, raising the dead is a common preoccupation in
electronics.

Actually I would suggest that "raising the dead" by those who are well aware
of the initial causes of death is a very good idea: As technology advices,
many old ideas that were once impractical become quite viable.

Sigh. I was afraid someone was going to take me seriously. Once upon
a time, I designed a radio direction finder, where the basic
principles were extracted from a 1920's radio physics book. I've done
other modernization projects, from electric car controllers borrowing
technology from about 1910[1], to borrowing overprice military
technology, that magically became affordable.

What engineering I've done in the past, is almost all "raising the
dead" if I include cleaning up someone else's mess, or picking up
projects after the funding died. For a while, my title was "Post
Mortem Engineering" in honor of my actual job function. Unfortunately,
my constant complaining was heard by management and whatever gods are
in charge of engineering, and subsequent projects turning into
cloning. Instead of raising the dead, I was now re-raising the
living. Sigh.

There's another benefit to raising the dead and reading up on old
technology. Many of the basic principles behind today's complicated
technologies are more apparent in the original crude forms, than they
are in the modern implementations.

Quote:
I would agree that (too) many people "raising the dead" aren't even aware that
their "new" idea is quite old nor what the appropriate history is -- this
seems to be the case with some fo the folks promoting wireless re-charging
stations these days.

Yep, but it won't help. Most new engineers want to do everything
themselves. Not invented here syndrome is epidemic. I did that for a
while, until I realized that reinventing the wheel was not a very
productive use of my time. So, I switched to the dark side and went
to "progress through plagiarism". The result was a large collection
of "Ideas for Design", competitors manuals, patents, old technical
books (which I still collect), and the usual reverse engineering. My
designs and career moved along much better after that, although there
was one problem. I never again had an original idea.


[1] Electric milk delivery vehicles were very popular between about
1910-1924(?) because they didn't make any noise during their early
morning delivery rounds.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Rich Grise
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Microwave Magnetron Projects

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:26:30 -0700, Joel Kolstad wrote:
Quote:
"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message

Unfortunately, raising the dead is a common preoccupation in
electronics.

Actually I would suggest that "raising the dead" by those who are well
aware of the initial causes of death is a very good idea: As technology
advices, many old ideas that were once impractical become quite viable.

I would agree that (too) many people "raising the dead" aren't even aware
that their "new" idea is quite old nor what the appropriate history is --
this seems to be the case with some fo the folks promoting wireless
re-charging stations these days.

That's not "raising the dead", that's "reinventing the wheel". ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
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Frithiof Andreas Jensen
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Microwave Magnetron Projects

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <paulh@seanet.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:47066A75.6F7304A8@seanet.com...

Quote:
I'm ruling out microwave weapons, anti police radar devices, etc for
obvious reasons, but if there's something to be done with this before
destroying it, I might add it to my projects list.

Blow up some stuff in it and post the vidz to yo-toobe
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