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Message |
Jim Thompson
Guest
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 Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: pcb etching |
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On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 03:37:07 GMT, Active8
<mcolasono@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
| Quote: | Is anyone using photo-sensitized boards anymore, or is that passe?
...Jim Thompson
man, you don't want to do a whole lot of pnp. you'll be scrubbing with
acetone forever. it's hard to get good even pressure with a regular iron
on anything over maybe 3 or 4 " . you have to get the tip down into it
and all.
i like the laminator idea, but for more than a coupla boards quick, i'd
rather use that laminator for dry-film resist.
mike
|
I have a rather expensive laminator that I use to make flash cards for
my autistic grandson. What is dry film resist?
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:21 am Post subject: Re: pcb etching |
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On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 10:38:51 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<Jim-T@golana-will-get-you.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 03:37:07 GMT, Active8
mcolasono@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
Is anyone using photo-sensitized boards anymore, or is that passe?
...Jim Thompson
man, you don't want to do a whole lot of pnp. you'll be scrubbing with
acetone forever. it's hard to get good even pressure with a regular iron
on anything over maybe 3 or 4 " . you have to get the tip down into it
and all.
i like the laminator idea, but for more than a coupla boards quick, i'd
rather use that laminator for dry-film resist.
mike
I have a rather expensive laminator that I use to make flash cards for
my autistic grandson. What is dry film resist?
...Jim Thompson
|
That's what's used in most commercial PCB fabrication except at the
very low end of single-sided boards which are still silk-screen
printed. The commercial laminators are used in safe-light rooms and
take a roll of film at a time.
Here's a relatively small laminator they say is suitable:
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/specs/modulam.htm
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/modulam_lam.htm
And a source for the film itself in less than full rolls.
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/specs/m115spec.htm
<http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db|photopolymers.dat|Photoresist>
The biggest problem with using a paper laminator would probably be the
adjustment range for thickness. Also, some cheap laminators are "cold"
(pressure only) and wouldn't work.
The hassles and cost of legally getting rid of plating and etching
wastewater is so high that I'd prefer to use commericial suppliers
except for the very odd one-off. The treatment facility of one local
medium sized (a few hundred people) PCB manufacturer cost >$2M.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Jim Thompson
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 3:02 am Post subject: Re: pcb etching |
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On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 22:21:42 GMT, Spehro Pefhany <speff@interlog.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 10:38:51 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
Jim-T@golana-will-get-you.com> wrote:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 03:37:07 GMT, Active8
mcolasono@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
Is anyone using photo-sensitized boards anymore, or is that passe?
...Jim Thompson
man, you don't want to do a whole lot of pnp. you'll be scrubbing with
acetone forever. it's hard to get good even pressure with a regular iron
on anything over maybe 3 or 4 " . you have to get the tip down into it
and all.
i like the laminator idea, but for more than a coupla boards quick, i'd
rather use that laminator for dry-film resist.
mike
I have a rather expensive laminator that I use to make flash cards for
my autistic grandson. What is dry film resist?
...Jim Thompson
That's what's used in most commercial PCB fabrication except at the
very low end of single-sided boards which are still silk-screen
printed. The commercial laminators are used in safe-light rooms and
take a roll of film at a time.
Here's a relatively small laminator they say is suitable:
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/specs/modulam.htm
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/modulam_lam.htm
And a source for the film itself in less than full rolls.
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/specs/m115spec.htm
http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db|photopolymers.dat|Photoresist
The biggest problem with using a paper laminator would probably be the
adjustment range for thickness. Also, some cheap laminators are "cold"
(pressure only) and wouldn't work.
The hassles and cost of legally getting rid of plating and etching
wastewater is so high that I'd prefer to use commericial suppliers
except for the very odd one-off. The treatment facility of one local
medium sized (a few hundred people) PCB manufacturer cost >$2M.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
|
My daughter just returned the laminator. It's an IBICO EL-12, accepts
up to 1/6" thickness (how's that for a strange number?). Temperature
setting is 100°C to 140°C. No speed adjustment, timed it looks like
about 0.5"/second. What does PnP Blue or the dry film require?
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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Active8
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:13 am Post subject: Re: pcb etching |
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[snip]
| Quote: |
My daughter just returned the laminator. It's an IBICO EL-12, accepts
up to 1/6" thickness (how's that for a strange number?). Temperature
setting is 100°C to 140°C. No speed adjustment, timed it looks like
about 0.5"/second. What does PnP Blue or the dry film require?
...Jim Thompson
|
around 110°C for dry film. not sure about PnP you might take a temp
probe to an iron on the linen setting to get an idea.
if it was you who mentioned spray resist, tell me about that. how fine
and accurate could you go? i was told that the reason presensitized
boards sell, is because the spray thickness isn't uniform and needs to
be centrifuged.
brs,
mike |
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Jim Thompson
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:49 am Post subject: Re: pcb etching |
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On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 01:13:14 GMT, Active8
<mcolasono@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | [snip]
My daughter just returned the laminator. It's an IBICO EL-12, accepts
up to 1/6" thickness (how's that for a strange number?). Temperature
setting is 100°C to 140°C. No speed adjustment, timed it looks like
about 0.5"/second. What does PnP Blue or the dry film require?
...Jim Thompson
around 110°C for dry film. not sure about PnP you might take a temp
probe to an iron on the linen setting to get an idea.
if it was you who mentioned spray resist, tell me about that. how fine
and accurate could you go? i was told that the reason presensitized
boards sell, is because the spray thickness isn't uniform and needs to
be centrifuged.
brs,
mike
|
I wasn't the one who mentioned spray resist, but I did use it in my
distant past. Worked just fine. I'm just looking for less mess...
I'll probably send mine out ;-)
(I once messed up an oven with FeCl3... made me persona non grata in
the kitchen ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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AtPCLogic
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:57 am Post subject: Re: pcb etching |
|
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| Quote: | The biggest problem with using a paper laminator would probably be the
adjustment range for thickness. Also, some cheap laminators are "cold"
(pressure only) and wouldn't work.
The hassles and cost of legally getting rid of plating and etching
wastewater is so high that I'd prefer to use commericial suppliers
except for the very odd one-off. The treatment facility of one local
medium sized (a few hundred people) PCB manufacturer cost >$2M.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
My daughter just returned the laminator. It's an IBICO EL-12, accepts
up to 1/6" thickness (how's that for a strange number?). Temperature
setting is 100°C to 140°C. No speed adjustment, timed it looks like
about 0.5"/second. What does PnP Blue or the dry film require?
|
Its more a problem with the fuser than the transfer paper. The fusing
temperature of your toner will vary from printer to printer because the toner
characteristics are optimized for specific print engines. The combination of
time-temperature-pressure is the most important thing. Experiment....
Regards,
Brad
PC Logic
Schematic entry and PCB design software
http://www.pclogic.biz
http://members.aol.com/atpclogic/index.html |
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db
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:26 am Post subject: Re: pcb etching |
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Jim Thompson <Jim-T@golana-will-get-you.com> wrote in message news:<09pklv0rg2drg2evutuirr8m72qtsna5k3@4ax.com>...
| Quote: | On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 22:21:42 GMT, Spehro Pefhany <speff@interlog.com
wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 10:38:51 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
Jim-T@golana-will-get-you.com> wrote:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 03:37:07 GMT, Active8
mcolasono@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
Is anyone using photo-sensitized boards anymore, or is that passe?
...Jim Thompson
man, you don't want to do a whole lot of pnp. you'll be scrubbing with
acetone forever. it's hard to get good even pressure with a regular iron
on anything over maybe 3 or 4 " . you have to get the tip down into it
and all.
i like the laminator idea, but for more than a coupla boards quick, i'd
rather use that laminator for dry-film resist.
mike
I have a rather expensive laminator that I use to make flash cards for
my autistic grandson. What is dry film resist?
...Jim Thompson
That's what's used in most commercial PCB fabrication except at the
very low end of single-sided boards which are still silk-screen
printed. The commercial laminators are used in safe-light rooms and
take a roll of film at a time.
Here's a relatively small laminator they say is suitable:
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/specs/modulam.htm
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/modulam_lam.htm
And a source for the film itself in less than full rolls.
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/specs/m115spec.htm
http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db|photopolymers.dat|Photoresist
The biggest problem with using a paper laminator would probably be the
adjustment range for thickness. Also, some cheap laminators are "cold"
(pressure only) and wouldn't work.
The hassles and cost of legally getting rid of plating and etching
wastewater is so high that I'd prefer to use commericial suppliers
except for the very odd one-off. The treatment facility of one local
medium sized (a few hundred people) PCB manufacturer cost >$2M.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
My daughter just returned the laminator. It's an IBICO EL-12, accepts
up to 1/6" thickness (how's that for a strange number?). Temperature
setting is 100°C to 140°C. No speed adjustment, timed it looks like
about 0.5"/second. What does PnP Blue or the dry film require?
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
|
The package of PNP says a temperature range of 275F to 325F. So 140C
just barely makes it at 284F. The temperature needed may depend more
on the properties of the toner. Also it is possible if the board goes
through multiple times it may get hotter than the 140C. |
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Michael
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: pcb etching |
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Jim Thompson wrote:
| Quote: | Is anyone using photo-sensitized boards anymore, or is that passe?
...Jim Thompson
|
Doubt it's passe, but PnP does seem to have a large following. I used
PnP Blue exclusively from 1995, but since my trusty IBM 4029 laser
printer died a year or so ago I've gotta do things another way. I'm
thinking of going back to 5x7 sheet film and photo resist. The copy
film negatives make it a breeze to blow off multiple boards. On the
other hand, taping the art work used to make the negative is a b___h.
The taping schlepp is the only thing, really, that has me sitting on the
fence and wondering which way to go. |
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Michael
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: pcb etching |
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Active8 wrote:
| Quote: | if it was you who mentioned spray resist, tell me about that. how fine
and accurate could you go? i was told that the reason presensitized
boards sell, is because the spray thickness isn't uniform and needs to
be centrifuged.
brs,
mike
|
Might have been me who mentioned spray resist. I used it many, many
moons ago ... like the late 60's. I haven't seen it for nearly that
long though. ISTR the stuff I used was made by G&C (GC?) but I wouldn't
bet on it. It had a purple color - you could see where it sprayed,
where it didn't, and how thick a coating was building up. You'd lay the
board flat, spray it, then bake to dry the resist. I was in the Air
Force at the time, lived in a barracks, so used ingenuity for the baking
part: small space heater; board on top; metal waste basket inverted over
space heater. It "worked a treat" as the Brits say. |
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